035: Pirouetting Her Way to Tech Founder with Mentorly’s Ashley Werhun

Doing really well. How are you?

 

Great, I’m so glad that you’re here. I know that you’re calling in from Montreal, a place which is close to my heart, having a lot of family there. I was there a couple of weeks ago. I’m super excited to be talking to you today.

 

Me too. I saw the title of the pod, I was like this seems like a fit for what we do.

 

Just a little bit right. Yeah, I think the way I stumbled upon you, I think it was just on Twitter, I don’t know how you popped up, but you did and it was meant to be.

 

Perfect Twitter or X keeps making it happen somewhere or the other.

 

I saw a good tweet that we as the community just need to keep saying tweet and Twitter and hopefully, if we just stick with that, it will maybe come back. We’ll have to see.

 

Yeah, it’s a platform of the people, for sure.

 

Let’s dive right in and we’ll talk about your educational and work background. Obviously, where did you go to school and what did you study? I’m sure we’ll touch upon the life of a ballerina.

 

I remember being asked at an international ballet competition in London I was 16, finishing up high school, and people said do you have a job yet? My mom looked at me like no, no, she’s finishing high school and they kind of look like why you should just start working and do homeschooling. That career starts really young. I started my first job at 18 after living in San Francisco at a company called Ballet British Columbia. Then, luckily, while I was working we developed relationships with one of the universities that we are around. I got kind of a free undergrad. I would take university classes on the road and after workdays. It was a pretty special program that they had for some of the artists I was able to study that way. That was at Boise State University. I majored in psychology.

 

Amazing. It’s cool that you had that push to do the degree while you were busy. I know a lot of people you’re so busy it’s difficult to do that additional studying.

 

Yeah, most of the long days you’re also expected to go to acupuncture and chiropractor. That is your job is to keep really healthy, to be kind of world-class. I’d always liked doing something on the side. I needed a distraction. Then you’re on tour about seven months of the year. You have these long plain rides and when you get somewhere you have a mandatory day off to adjust. It felt like a good thing to focus on. When I was growing up my mom always said when I said should I go to university or start a career, she said I really remember her saying universities don’t close, do the thing first. That maybe relies on kind of age brackets or opportunity brackets and then the other stuff can be layered on. I was really happy to do that. It gave me a lot of grounding while I was on tour and off in the summer.

 

I know you also spent some time at Juilliard.

 

I went there in the summers when I was younger. Juilliard’s generally post-secondary, so you go from 18 to 21,. But I got a job right out of school so I actually didn’t go to the university program. They have kind of early acceptance for dancers and musicians in the summertime when you’re really young and kind of at that you’re edging on that world-class experience. To go for the summer. I remember going when I was 15 or 16 to live in New York for the summer by myself. It was an awakening but it felt like, okay, this is a path I really want to pursue professionally.

 

Obviously, you had a lot of experiences inside and outside the classroom, whatever that proverbial classroom was Sure. What experience do you think were most impactful in directing your path?

 

So when you’re going to that city you know that when you get off a bus it will be a red carpet and you expect to have a gift in hand and all of these little things we get trained on and In your young twenties I think that’s a big kind of eye opening experience. And then in every city we would not only do a show but we do a cultural exchange With a group that they’re either a group of at risk kids or, like a tribe in in Vietnam, came down from the rural areas to teach us like their dance that’s so historical to them as a culture. Or you know a professional ballet school in China where I was teaching the twelve year olds and they were way better than me. So I think layering on those cultural experiences as I was dancing was it was a large part of education.

 

I mean, yeah, sounds like the experience is that you had. Your average teenager or young adult does not have, and it really doesn’t surprise me that you’re a founder of this amazing company organization having such a diverse background and Sort of foundation to build your life on just so cool yeah, I feel very lucky let’s jump into mentorship. As someone who runs a company driven to help facilitate and improve mentoring, how would you define a mentor?

 

A mentor is really someone that is guiding someone, either in a peer basis or that is a little bit before them, and using their lived experience to do so. So it really goes beyond sort of an education model where you’re trying to teach someone skills or Verbiage or lessons that you know or textbook knows. You’re trying to take all of your experience, that you’ve lived in real life in the context of that industry, in the context of your own experience, and pass that down and it’s really to help the mentee To effectively not make the same mistakes you’ve made and also to be seen when a mentee is going through someone and a mentor can simply say I see that I’ve experienced that too, and maybe it was much, much worse, so don’t worry as much. It’s a very powerful relationship, but that relationship to find and to maintain is actually quite abstract for people, and so we really wanted to dig into that topic in Mentorly.

 

So what would you say are the most important traits in a mentor? So, besides the fact of like having a lot of experience in that area, but what would you say makes a good mentor?

 

And the other part is, I think you know when you’re mentoring, you’re fundamentally optimistic, right, you see potential in people, you see that challenges can become overcome. You want to wait until the end to give feedback, and then you also know that it’s going to go through the filter, that it may be taken and it may not be, and and that’s OK, and you have to kind of let it go right. You’re not their boss, you’re not necessarily their manager, and we’ll get into why that maybe matters not to be directly mentored by your manager, but you’re there to support their journey, and so I think most mentors have kind of a quality of selflessness also in theirs that they just want to be helpful and and it’s really not about them in that moment- I love that point about like the optimistic perspective, because I’m like thinking on the, you know, on the opposites, and someone who kind of looks at the glass half empty.

 

I don’t think they’re going to be a good mentor.

 

Sometimes it trains you to be right, like being a founder, I think you. It trains you to be optimistic because you’re looking for opportunity in the world. But I think sometimes we have an easier time giving other people advice and taking our own. So even if you’re sort of down in your own experience and nothing’s going well and the economy is crashing, but you meet with like a really hungry person that is new to the industry and they’re not as jaded and they don’t have as much information and so you have to be optimistic because their life also is just beginning in some respects. So I do see also levels of optimism increase as you mentor. There’s a study that we cite a lot around the science of giving back and the more you do the action actually, the happier you become. So it is also something that you can do to become more optimistic, which is good yeah.

 

And I think that’s such an important point about giving back and that actually makes you happier. Some people think, like, by giving my time, I’m actually taking away for myself, but I’m a big believer and I’m sure you have this study to prove it. But yeah, when you actually give, you actually gain a lot more. So that’s why, if you think about it, that relationship is really. It’s a two way street. Both people gain a lot.

 

But I learned a lot because I’m reminding myself of things that I really want to do, that maybe I’m not implementing right. There’s that aspect too when you’re teaching something, you better be following it yourself, and it’s really a really good reminder. And the other thing we find is it’s linked to purpose. So a lot of the times when you’re kind of reaching that level of mastery in your career, it can get kind of boring right Like on the traditional S-curve of learning. When you’re sliding in the middle it’s the most interesting to someone. And then when you reach that mastery peak, that’s often when you’ll see a change of industry or job, because people get itchy for change. So when someone is a master or reaching a mastery of their role or their skill set, giving back and teaching some of that can reinstate their purpose and remind them kind of how good they are at what they do.

 

So do you feel like companies should actually look at senior people in the organization and, by kind of putting them into mentorship positions, might actually keep them there longer?

 

But there are a lot of things that go into someone wanting to leave their role, but a big one is that they’re losing a sense of purpose, that they feel more purpose, maybe from starting again or from spending more time with their family, and so by having people mentor, it definitely connects them and it also allows them to become, like this, ambassador of company value. So you do want to be careful of who you choose to mentor. If you have someone that’s maybe on a negative sense or doesn’t understand the company as well, it can play negatively. But if someone is asking you hey, what do I need to know from day one? Tell me about the real culture. Tell me about what this company is all about. Like you’re effectively getting them to state your values and how you work and sort of the most ambitious part of the company which in day to day work can kind of fade away. Sometimes you just don’t come back to why you’re there. So I think having that experience is really helpful for senior leaders.

 

I love these nuggets. You think you have this podcast about mentorship and kind of cover everything, but we are really uncovering some amazing thoughts and ideas. So, ashley, thank you I know we’ve just started, yeah who have been some of your most influential mentors? Let’s talk about them.

 

And those lessons I still have a notebook from when I was 17. And they have continued to be pillars and whenever I get lost I go read some of the things I talked to him about and I still see him like me and my fiance went to one of their shows when they were on tour in Montreal and he lifted out his arms. He’s this really tall guy and he’s like Ashley, you know, and so those kind of relationships. Even though it was only concentrated in the period of like two years, those lessons are still with me in my business career, in my relationships and who I want to be. So I find that he had like big ideas about the world and it wasn’t necessarily connected to what we were working on, maybe in the studio, but when you’re talking about self-worth and confidence, that kind of spans throughout your whole life, and that’s why it’s kind of funny saying, hey, are people going to be interested in Alonzo?

 

Yes, of course they are, because, like, look at these pillars that he formed for you and I think it shows you how important mentors are earlier in your life right, it’s not only when you get that first job, but even teenagers, and especially teenagers. But having those right mentors in their life can make a huge difference.

 

No, you have to be inherently confident and aware of who you are and the information you have. And if you don’t have it, it’s okay, because that’s the journey you’re going on. So that kind of lesson for like a ballerina sure, yeah, it’s important because you have to be good at that and provide a world-class experience. But it’s more about like looking inwards and then you know how do you maintain that in every city, in every country, on every time zone so that kind of spans to when market conditions change, how do you remain confident? And when you know outside forces take over, like people quit, how do you maintain your composure? So I think mentors lessons, especially when they’re zoomed out on life. They just weave their way back into every experience you have.

 

Yeah, I’m just very inspired. Right now.

 

I should text Alonso. I’m like Alonso, where are you? I should write him an email.

 

Totally. I know we’ve also spoken about your current investors. Let’s talk about how they’re mentors to you.

 

The most amazing thing about being an investor is that your investment into that relationship and then entrepreneurs obviously going to pay out in a monetary way, so it incentivizes them to pick up the call, but they just go above and beyond anything you’d think. Right, like being walking you through a deal for two weeks and they’re running their own company, and sometimes I just text them saying I can’t imagine you have time for this, like I don’t just text me after dinner, before the kids go to bed and we’ll walk through it. Like they just kind of take your call and they’ve saved us probably millions of dollars and mistakes by doing that, and so when we were looking for investors, we were almost trying to. I was trying to find a mentor in every department I need, like a security person, a marketing person, an HR person, someone that represents our customer base, someone maybe that works with data and AI, so that when those questions come up, you have someone to call or they know someone to introduce you to. So my investors have been really supportive.

 

Yeah, I know it might be cliche, but it like reminds me of Shark Tank, right, like you can get money from anyone, but I do want to get money from the people who can actually provide value in addition to the money.

 

So it’s great that you were.

 

You had the foresight to choose investors that could help beyond just that. Writing that check.

 

Yeah, I would say entrepreneurship feels the farthest thing away from Shark Tank. But yes, I think the trope makes sense is like you want smart money, you want people that are going to help you and have experience.

 

So let’s talk about who you mentor in your current position. I know you’re mentoring a few programs like Revolution, her, princess Trust. Let’s talk about that a bit.

 

So one is in Revolution Her with a new nonprofit founder. She’s starting from idea, idea. She’s coming from like a very academic background, so much more data and context that I ever had to start my company with, which is cool, but it provides its own challenges. And then also with Princes Trust it’s an organization here in Canada, but there is one in, I think, 30 countries around the world and by the name. It’s sponsored by the Royal Family and so I was like, is it called the King’s Trust? Now? They focus on supporting ex-military veterans that are opening businesses, which is a really cool journey, going from that world to civilian world and building businesses. So I’m mentoring a team of two women founders in that program and I’m finding them to be really just like wells of joy within my life. I look forward to all of those calls.

 

And it serves that dual purpose of like actually being a mentor but then also kind of like intel for your product.

 

Yeah, we call it dog-footing. You want to eat your own dog food, exactly.

 

And then, when they get into the conversation, we provide a lot of helpful things like agenda setting. How would you set a 60-minute agenda? What does that look like? Because probably, as you’ve discussed on this podcast, if you get there and the mentee just talks the whole time, is that a good exchange? If you’re doing background information and just telling them all about why you’re here today, is that a good exchange? So we help providing hey in the first 10 minutes you might want to do a bit of background and then dive into biggest challenges, what you have done to try to solve those today, what has the outcomes done, maybe discuss what you could do differently. So we try to guide those calls in an industry-agnostic way.

So we touched upon it a bit earlier. But what was it about your previous business mentorship relationships that inspired you to create Mentorly?

 

And I think a very personal thing happened too At the end of my ballet career when you’re doing 100 shows a year, it’s like you on stage, if you are sick or injured, there’s no product. Like there just is not. And I was getting to the ripe old age of 30 and getting so tired and injured and I kind of thought, ok gosh, I hope I do things in my next stage that can kind of live without me, can kind of operate without my physical sweat maybe and blood, and that it can continue to scale. And so the idea of software and the ability for one program manager to open up this entire experience for thousands of other people was kind of freeing for me, like OK, I can invest a lot of time and focus into this, but hopefully it can kind of ripple out. So that was the idea behind it.

 

Do you think that’s also part of the reason why you started your own company and maybe didn’t go and join some of the other platforms that are out there? I know there’s not a lot, but there are a couple.

 

Yeah Well, we started, like you said in the intro, we started for creatives and artists because that was what I was briefed with and the people around me, and then, really quickly, we moved into an enterprise product so that the program manager could affect other people. So it was a pivot to our existing product. Why did I start it? It’s a deep question. It’s always easier to be an employee, isn’t it?

 

I don’t know.

 

Are you an employee?

 

No, I’m not. You’ve been both, I’ve been both.

 

My parents are both entrepreneurs and I remember when I was leaving ballet they were like just be an employee, collect that paycheck. Like I remember them taking phone calls from home when I was a young toddler, running around the house and she was trying to be like mom’s on a work call. So I remember that not a lot of time and space to balance your life. But I was always interested in side projects. Even in my career I was involved in board direction development. So at 23, I was also the liaison between the board and the artists and I would sit in board meetings and things like this. I was always interested in where the money is coming from. Why are we paid what we’re paid? How could that get better over time? And I think that lends yourself to just start projects. So I’ve had a number of projects before this one that turned into a tech company, but it’s always been kind of. My natural thing is to do my own thing.

 

What are some of the startup challenges that you’re most proud to have overcome as you started back in 2017? So many.

 

It was my first tech company. It’s like this big vision that I wanted to have. I thought people would get and they got it. We just didn’t get it to the scale to make a business, and that’s okay. Now myself I would go back and pivot much faster. I think, spending your money wisely and not overspending. I think when we first raised, we were like, okay, we need a UX, ui, we need a designer, we need to pump up the team, which is important, and it is the message you get after you fund raise. Now, in this new macro environment, you know that every dollar really matters. We’re on a different path to spending and we’re more focused on what is getting results. And then what can we maybe do in-house, versus spending a lot externally? Those are some of the primary challenges we faced.

 

You launched mentally and then, shortly after, whole world shifted its business model to be mostly remote. I imagine that this put a strain on already fragile mentorship relationships and structures within businesses. How did you overcome the remote hurdle as it relates to mentoring?