124: Copy Isn’t Dead: Michal Eisik on Mentorship, Courses, and AI

Danny Gavin (Host): 00:05
Welcome back to the Digital Marketing Mentor. I’m your host Danny Gavin, agency founder, marketing professor, and the host of the Digital Marketing Mentor Podcast. Today’s guest has one of the more unexpected paths I’ve come across on the show. And she’s someone I owe a personal debt to. My guest is Michal Isaac, founder, academy owner, and chief strategist, and Michal Isaac Media. Before she ever wrote a line of marketing copy, Michal trained and worked as a speech therapist. And that background in language and human psychology is exactly what shaped the messaging philosophy she’s built her whole career around. Since then, she’s built a microagency focused on website copywriting for B2B and SaaS brands, working with names like Planable, Funalytics, and Book Like a Boss. And she’s trained and mentored hundreds of marketers, freelancers, and entrepreneurs along the way. I’ll say the personal part up front because that’s the reason that this whole conversation exists. Michal has been a mentor to me. When I was building out my own training programs and trying to figure out where to go and what to do, she was the person I went to and she didn’t hold back. She was such a friend and good person. So this is a little different from the usual guest interview. This is me getting to ask my own mentor the questions I’ve been sitting on. We’re covering her path and the mentors who shaped it, what teaching marketing actually looks like now that the boom is over and the machines can teach too, why she thinks marketers should lean into AI instead of bracing against it, and the website copy mistakes she sees businesses making over and over again. Please welcome to the digital marketing mentor, Michal Isaac.

Michal Eisik: 01:51
Wow. Thanks so much, Danny. And thanks for having me. Great to be here.

Danny Gavin (Host): 01:54
My absolute pleasure. I’m so glad that we could finally do it. Let’s rewind the clock because I want people to understand how you got here in the first place. It’s not the typical copywriter business owner origin story. So I believe you

Danny Gavin (Host): 02:05
took your first marketing internship at 19 while you were also training and working as a speech therapist. Can you walk us through what that season of your life actually looked like?

Michal Eisik: 02:14
Yeah. So I was in a master’s program getting my master’s degree in speech language pathology. And I wanted to do something on the side, earn some money, get some experience, get some real world professional experience. I didn’t have kids yet. And I took on this internship on a whim. I think I got paid the equivalent of $9 an hour to start. And it was amazing. It was at this publishing company filled with super talented, smart creatives. And every minute I worked there was so stimulating and thought-provoking and really challenging, pushed me to my limit, pushed me to work really hard. And what I discovered after my internship, I ended up working there as an employee for two and a half years because it worked out so well for all of us. And it suddenly occurred to me that wow, marketing writing is a thing, and I could actually make money doing it. I had never considered that career path. It had never occurred to me in high school, post-high school. And even in high school, like I wouldn’t have considered myself a writer. In other words, I wrote very well and I think I did very well in all my essays. But to me, writing was always like this arduous thing that you have to do for English and literature class. It wasn’t something fun necessarily. It wasn’t something exciting. I wasn’t the kind of girl who was journaling every night in her diary, completely not. So suddenly I was introduced to this world where I could actually use my writing skill in a very interesting, exciting, and strategic way. So that experience, it was two and a half years total, but it was very, very transformative for me. And then what happened was that company eventually downsized. So I moved away from that company after two and a half years. And then I said, okay, so it’s time for me to start my conventional career as a speech therapist. I have this degree, it was a very expensive degree, and now I have to use it. So I started working three days a week as a speech therapist. And it went very well objectively. The parents liked me, the kids liked me, and I was doing good work, but I had been bitten by this writing bug. And I found myself craving the intellectual stimulation of the writing, marketing side of things. So I was drawn back to it. And what I found was that two to three days a week, I wanted to go back to that work. And I started taking on freelance writing projects, largely through my network and my contacts from my time at that company. I started taking on freelancing work on the side. So I was doing speech therapy for two or three days a week, depending on the year, and then freelance writing on the other days. So my brain was like in two different places completely. I did a lot of magazine writing during that time. So for about six, seven years, I was writing regular feature articles and essays for Meshbaha magazine. I don’t do fiction, so I didn’t do any of that, but I did a lot of very heavy social issues type of feature articles where I had to interview 12 different people and do a lot of research into a pretty controversial or heavy topic, which was always very fun for me. And then I started taking on copywriting work, which is really the kind of work I had been doing at my internship at this publishing company. I had written the backflaps for books. I had written press releases and catalog descriptions for books. I was very involved in the marketing of each book. So I went back to that and I started doing freelance copywriting on the side. I had a couple of agencies that worked with me regularly. So I was all over the place. I was doing speech therapy twice a week with mostly preschool age kids. I was writing these magazine articles and I was writing copy. And at some point, I felt like my brain was going to explode. I had what I describe as scattered brain syndrome, where you feel like you’re spread so thin and you are not succeeding or performing particularly well in any one area just because you’re all over the place. So I actually took a business course in the summer of 2016. My youngest by then was about one. I had four children by that time. I was intrigued at the idea of setting up a proper freelance business for myself. So I decided to invest in myself and to take this two-month freelancing course. It was run by Rob Marsh and Kira Hugg, two very well-known people in the copywriting world who I completely consider mentors and I deeply respect and have enormous appreciation for. And I took this two-month course and I remember it was like such a leap for me. I think the whole course was like $1,200. And I thought and thought and thought so hard before taking that course. And I look back at that decision today and I’m like, thank you, Michal, for believing in yourself and making that choice. So I took that course and I was so inspired by the people in the course and the whole direction of freelancing that I said, you know what? I’m going to take leave of my speech therapy job and my magazine writing for this year. And I’m going to go all in on this freelance copywriting thing. I’m going to implement everything I just learned in this course over the next year, see where it takes me. If it goes well, fantastic. And if it doesn’t, I kind of knew I did have the security that my speech therapy job was kind of waiting for me because there were many positions to be filled in my area. And they were very sad to see me go and they would have been happy to welcome me back. So I did have that cushion. And I said, let’s do this experiment. And it was amazing. It was just amazing. Not only did my income increase dramatically over the course of that year, but I also found my quality of life improved significantly. Not having to rush out in the morning with all my nursing paraphernalia, all my toys and games for the kids I was working with, my lunch packed, not having to wake up at 5:30 in the morning just to get out by 8:15, not having to be out of the house, being able to be more home around with the kids and have a more flexible schedule with sick children or kids home from school because I was working from home. That flexibility and freedom was also huge. So, all in all, it was an amazing experience. And I just never looked back. So that was really where it all started.

Danny Gavin (Host): 08:44
Was there a specific moment that you realized that this turned into more of like a business more than a solo copywriting career?

Michal Eisik: 08:53
So it was really that year. I think that course changed my mindset a lot. I had been operating as this freelance copywriter for all those years, but I never turned it into something meaningful or something structured or very profitable. And that course really changed my view of what was possible as a business owner and made me believe in myself. I always say that you want to be the dumbest person in the room. Like if you feel like everyone else in the room is smarter than you, you’re in the right place. And that’s how I felt in this course. I felt like I was the least experienced business-wise, and I was asking the most questions and learning the most by osmosis from everyone else’s conversations. And until today, I keep up with many of the members of that course because we kind of all just grew and exploded our businesses together. And it was a really powerful time for many of us. I remember like at one point during that year, there was even a moment of disbelief. I felt like pinching myself is it really possible for me, a 28-year-old woman, working from home with a bunch of little kids to make this kind of money? It was just, I hadn’t realized it was within the realm of possibility.

Danny Gavin (Host): 10:10
Out-of-the-box question. But how much of your speech therapy training shows up in how you think about psychology and language today? Like, is it a part of you? Do you ever rely on that? Or have you kind of grown and moved past that?

Michal Eisik: 10:22
It’s interesting. I think it would make for a far more interesting story to talk about how the things I learned in my master’s program directly inform or powerfully inform my work today. It’s probably not that much because the fields are so different. I think the part that maybe has had an impact is the people skills, the communication skills, working with parents, having difficult, delicate conversations with parents. I think those skills have served me very well working with clients and students. And the truth is, those kinds of people skills, you can never go wrong developing those across any industry and in any role you find yourself.

Danny Gavin (Host): 11:07
So that is an awesome story. Now I want to ask about who helped write it. You’ve trained and mentored hundreds of people at this point. What does mentorship actually mean to you day to day?

Michal Eisik: 11:15
I think mentorship is two things. It’s number one, being an example, a vision of maybe my business or aspect of my business could look like this person’s one day. And it’s not that you necessarily want to replicate everything about your mentor’s life or business, but there may be elements that are extremely compelling for you. And that you, that vision of what could be is kind of in your mind as this guiding light as you make decisions in your professional journey. So I think that example piece is very big. And the second piece is clear teaching combined with empathy. If you can clearly communicate and convey often complicated concepts in a sticky, memorable, absorbable way, along with that human understanding and supportive feel of I’m here for you. I really am rooting for you, and I want to see your success. I think that combination is super powerful. And it’s interesting because I’m sure we’ll touch on this more later in the conversation. But now with AI in the picture, I think this kind of mentorship is only going to be more and more important because AI is amazing as an informational mentor. I find myself consulting with AI all day long. And yet it doesn’t give the

Michal Eisik: 12:41
empathy and the connection that we humans crave. So I think that personal connection, that need for personal connection is not going away and may even become more pronounced as we get inundated by talking to AI all day.

Danny Gavin (Host): 12:57
Yeah, we are definitely on the same page. So I was on a stage at a marketing conference back in June. And one of the questions was now that we have AI, what are you going to do? What’s going to be the future of agencies? And I’m like, honestly, it’s just going to be more time to speak with your customers. Customers are dying to talk to you. They want you, they want their time. And agencies are always so big of like, yes, but we can only have like one call a week and things like that. But man, if I could be totally open and work, then that’s that’s what people crave. That’s what they want. And I agree with you. I think there’s gonna be a lot of value for that moving forward. You mentioned Alison Freed, your first marketing manager, gave you room to experiment while holding you to a high standard and taught you to welcome critique. How has that shaped the way you mentor people now?

Michal Eisik: 13:40
Allison was amazing as a manager. She’s still an amazing person. We keep in touch periodically. What I appreciate so much about her was, as I mentioned, that she kind of gave me free reign. So I had ideas about how to market, how to promote certain books. And she was like, that sounds good. Give me a plan, and then you can run with it. So there was a lot of space for me to take initiative and develop my own ideas. And there was a really good balance of positive feedback. So I felt motivated, but also that very comprehensive, careful critique. To be honest, that was a very important learning experience for me because I had coasted through high school and college pretty easily. And I had gotten very little critical feedback over the years. So it was very important for me to be able to submit a press release that I had worked seven hours on and had felt like, oh my gosh, this was the most amazing thing since sliced bread. And then get back the work two hours later with tons of markup by Allison of like how I could drastically improve the piece. So it was very humbling, but it was also so important for me. Someone aspiring to grow their career to really learn to embrace that feedback and to see it as part of my professional development. And that’s something that I work so hard to encourage my students and mentees to think about how there are few things that are greater blessings than professional critique. Nobody out there is gonna point out where you can improve. Nobody out there is gonna take the time to give you detailed specific feedback on how you can get better, advance your skills. So if someone is doing it, whether you’re paying them or they’re doing it out of the generosity of their own heart, just welcome it with open arms because that is the only way you get better. And isn’t that what we all want? We all want to get better, to do better work. So I think that it was a difficult experience for me, but it was so foundational. And that’s something that I really try to create a culture where feedback is welcome. And it’s something I try to live by as a course creator as well. I’m sure you’ve experienced this, Danny. People have lots of feedback when you run a course. So being able to genuinely thank people for their feedback and welcome it and sincerely appreciate the time people took to share that feedback, even if some of it is uncomfortable and doesn’t feel so good in the moment, I think that’s a skill we could all keep strengthening. And ultimately, I’m proud of the way that I have refined my courses over the years based on feedback from my students. And I openly tell them, I say, your feedback is what makes this course get better every single year. So that’s why I appreciate it so much.

Danny Gavin (Host): 16:39
You’ve also spoken about Amy Posner and her relationship first approach to clients. How does that show up in how you run your business?

Michal Eisik: 16:46
So when I first met Amy, I just felt like she was this breath of fresh air, especially in the copywriting world, there’s a lot of this bro hustle culture. So you have like the direct sales response people who are like sometimes selling products to very vulnerable populations with questionable, shady techniques. You have that population. And then you have the segment of that population that’s very just aggressive with their own money-making efforts and the messaging for all their products and courses is just extremely. I’m trying to find a word that’s like more than aggressive because it’s not just aggressive, it can also be kind of like pulling at some difficult emotions. So there was a part of me that was like, whoa, like if I want to succeed as a copywriter, as a marketer, do I have to just join what’s going on here? Like, do I have to just get on the bandwagon and do that too? Amy showed me no. Amy is just a very elegant, genuine, straight talking person. So the fact that she maintained that status and still is extremely successful in her own right, that was very encouraging to me. And specifically, she’s just the kind of person who you want to talk to. Like speaking of that example that you just shared about these clients just wanting to get on the phone with their agency contact and talk it out. I feel like Amy’s clients want to do that with her because she’s the kind of person who is just a pleasure to talk to, really lets, really hears you out, has that empathy along with wisdom, along with the backbone to know when to kindly push back. And so she to me is just an example of how you can build a more relationship-driven business, a business that may take longer to grow, but ends up being more sustainable because it’s built on real values and it’s more aligned with your personality and your approach to life in general. So I have a lot of gratitude to Amy, and I know many copywriters and marketers in this space do as well.

Danny Gavin (Host): 19:07
You’ve also said that people remember how you make them feel and that you try to leave clients, students, and team members feeling more capable than you found them. Why does that matter so much to you?

Michal Eisik: 19:16
So I think I’ve actually evolved quite a bit as a business owner myself. Looking back at my early years of running this business, I think I was so heady with this new reality of doing something I love, I’m good at, and that I can make a lot of money. I was just like so enthralled by these new possibilities that I think I went too much to the extreme. I swung very hard to one end of the pendulum. And I was like very focused on making money, probably to the exclusion of some other things. Maybe my messaging was not as careful and accurate as it should have been in some places. Maybe I was just overly focused on the numbers and overlooked some of the relationship or people things in the process. I’m not proud to say that today, but I do think that was the case for a good chunk of the beginning years. As my business has grown, I think I’ve thankfully swung back and reached a more balanced place in the spectrum where I definitely want to make money. I think making money is great, but I also want to build strong relationships. I want to build a business that makes me very proud in all ways. I want to make to build a business that’s deeply

Michal Eisik: 20:40
aligned with the things that I value and a business that leaves that impact, whether it’s a client or a student or even just someone inquiring about a product who never ends up buying, but that anyone who interacts with me or my team should walk away feeling happier, lighter, more positive, like spreading positive energy and just kindness. And I think it’s so easy to do that, even if you’re not, even if you’re if this person is not going to become your student, you don’t have to invest a lot of time to make people feel good. And I think as I’ve grown as a business owner, I appreciate more that that’s what lasts. You know, business has up ups and downs. As we know, with everything in AI right now, and things can are so uncertain in so many ways, but relationships and these acts of kindness and spreading positive energy, that that kind of stuff lasts.

Danny Gavin (Host): 21:37
You’ve put hundreds, if not a thousand, I don’t know how many, of people through online training. So I believe that you have a view of this world that almost nobody else has. Let’s go back. 2020, 2021, COVID, everybody was launching a course, everybody, everybody was buying one, you were teaching straight through all of it. What actually changed when the world opened back up?

Michal Eisik: 21:57
It’s interesting. I didn’t see the change right after. I think it was more two or three years later because there was this COVID boom where everyone got tons of cash thanks to various government initiatives. So everyone was riding that cash wave for a while. And if I had to choose a year, it was probably 2022 or 2023 when things started dying down in the course world. So you have COVID, everybody’s home, everybody’s a little bit bored, or maybe they just want to upskill once they’re anyway like home and they can’t go anywhere. They can’t do anything. So you have all these courses, and everyone’s jumping on the course bandwagon. Everyone and their brother-in-law is making a course. And suddenly by 2023, reality sets in, cash flow is not there anymore. And everyone’s like, hold up, you know, we we need to figure this out. And there’s a lot more hesitation and concerns about buying courses. I think the change that has lasted is that people now believe in the power and transformation of good online courses. I think there were certain populations that were extremely skeptical and less likely to buy an online course prior to COVID. And now those populations are fully on board. It’s just a question of the offer. Does the offer make sense for me? Does the price point align with my budget? Do I feel like I can invest in this way right now?

Danny Gavin (Host): 23:29
What do you think online learning was promising back then that it couldn’t deliver? And what kind of survived? So, like obviously, people fell off and then people, you know, certain courses continued. What do you think changed?

Michal Eisik: 23:41
Number one, the courses that manage to ride the wave and survive are the ones that combined excellent content with implementation and mentorship, as you mentioned earlier. Because without that second half, you can get content anywhere. It’s just not enough to be worth paying for anymore. Ultimately, we we humans, I was, I was listening to a podcast recently. I love Mark Manson’s podcast. He has this. Are you familiar?

Danny Gavin (Host): 24:12
I’m not, but I I saw you mention him in the notes.

Michal Eisik: 24:15
I’m crazy about it. Okay. So he has this personal development podcast very focused on psychology research. And he examines the latest findings of neuroscience to see how we can improve and shape our own quality of life and behaviors. One of the more memorable things he said is that we humans should just treat ourselves like dogs, in the sense that we should assume that we will just react instinctively to things and that we will have total loss of self-control. And we should just set up our lives assuming that we will behave like dogs. And it sounds very pathetic, but in a way, it’s a great piece of advice. Because if we really set up our lives that way, we’re setting ourselves up for success and we’re empowering ourselves to really achieve the discipline that we want. So why am I saying this? Because without deadlines and accountability, most people do nothing. That’s the reality. And so a good course incorporates that coaching and accountability and implementation all in one so that people actually walk away with results and with transformation. And I think if you’re gonna offer a content-only course without that piece, then it has to be much lower priced because about half of the people will walk away succeeding because those half somehow have the willpower, the time, the motivation to actually watch the stuff. And the other half will probably get through a module and a half. That’s been my experience.

Danny Gavin (Host): 25:44
What would you say is a course genuinely not good for? And same thing for people, like who should not buy courses?

Michal Eisik: 25:50
I don’t know that there’s necessarily a kind of person who should not buy courses. I think it very much depends on the nature of the course, what’s being promised, and how it’s structured. I think that most people will benefit enormously from a course that has that accountability, implementation, coaching, and social piece integrated into it. That’s another big one. Like when we have peers who are doing stuff around us, it creates that positive peer pressure and momentum that powers us and motivates us. Some people should just think carefully about their season of life. Sometimes you’re in a season of life where you’re genuinely not in a position to invest time and headspace in a course. And then it could be a very frustrating experience when you enroll in one and you just constantly feel like you’re chasing your tail and that you ended up only getting a fraction of the value of the course because you simply didn’t have the time. So I think there are seasons of life that are genuinely not a good fit for courses.

Danny Gavin (Host): 26:50
So obviously the structure is gonna help a lot with this, but completion rates in online learning, right, are can be terrible sometimes. So across the hundreds of people you’ve trained, what separates the ones who finish and go build something from the ones who don’t?

Michal Eisik: 27:04
It’s interesting. I think at one point on my LinkedIn profile, I had in my headline a 96% completion rate of my courses. And that might have sounded like hyperbole to some, but it’s actually 100% true. I had that kind of completion rate. And the reason I had it is because everyone wants that certification at the end. When you invest four or five, six K in a program, you are not walking away without that certificate in hand. And if that means you have to submit a certain amount of work on time and incorporate the critique and just do all the stuff, you’re gonna do it. You might end up needing some extended deadlines due to life circumstances, we’ll work with you, but it’s gonna get done. So the vast majority of my students completed the course. That was not the issue for me. Where I’ve seen the past start to diverge is after the course. So, what are they doing with the course? How many people are taking that certification, that newfound training and running with it and building something big and transformative? And I think there are a couple of factors. There are some people who took the course as like with a very clear career goal. They wanted to make something big out of it. Those people tend to run with it much more. Some people take it more as like a secondary skill. Like, I’m not sure I want to go in this direction, but I know it’ll be valuable for me in my current role, regardless. With those people, sometimes external factors just have them stay in their existing role because it’s working for them, but the course teachings enhance their performance in that role and often allow them to build something on the side. I don’t like to measure success with, you know, a kind of like limiting measuring stick, because like I have had students who were promoted into different roles within their company. And it wasn’t the classic copywriter role, but they have a lot more ownership of aspects of marketing at the company right now. And for them, that’s huge success. I have students who have launched their own businesses completely unrelated to copywriting and marketing, and they tell me all the time that they’re using these skills in the marketing of their own business. So I think that success can take many forms. The one thing that I have seen is that the students who are gritty and resilient are the ones that generally succeed. Talent is very important. Talent makes a big difference, but I would say even more than that are the people who show up with consistency and grit. And we underestimate the power of that in business. I remember once, like I’m sure I’m sure you’ve had this experience, Danny, where you’ve worked with people or you’ve come across people professionally and you have a conversation with them, and you after the conversation, kind of scratch your head and you’re like, this person is pretty incompetent. Like, have you ever had that?

Danny Gavin (Host): 29:57
Like all the time.

Michal Eisik: 29:59
And like you’re like wondering, like, how does this person even have a profitable business? Like, and you know something? What I’ve seen is that there are people out there. I know that I have students who are 10 times more talented than that person. But you know something? This person is just going for it. And they have confidence like Mount Everest, and they’re just pursuing work, pursuing clients, and they are relentless and they get there, they get stuff done. So I again, if you’re a complete idiot and totally incompetent, then you’re gonna be limited. But if you’re, you know, somewhat mediocre, but you have this huge dose of grit and people skills, then you can still go pretty far.

Danny Gavin (Host): 30:45
Yeah. And I think that’s important, especially when we talk to our children, right? Sometimes they’ll be in a class where people get hundreds and it’s just so easy. You don’t have to study. What they don’t realize is actually the skills that you’re building up, like gonna make you successful. That other person most probably will fall behind because they think they could just get away with the pure talent.

Michal Eisik: 31:02
Something personal. I know I’ve I’ve shared a lot with my students and subscribers how one of my favorite hobbies now is netball. I play netball three times a week with an amazing group of women. It’s the British version of basketball. It’s amazing.

Danny Gavin (Host): 31:15
My mom used to play it.

Michal Eisik: 31:16
Oh, is it Australia?

Danny Gavin (Host): 31:18
No. So my mom was actually born in Zimbabwe in Rhodesia, which is uh right on top of South Africa. And then eventually she like immigrated to South Africa and then they came to America. But yeah, she used to play netball. I don’t know if it was in high school or yeah.

Michal Eisik: 31:31
Oh, yeah. No, that’s very big. South Africa, England, yeah. So I’m like the only American on my team. I’m the weirdo American who plays netball. So why am I saying this? Because when I started playing netball about four years ago, I was so bad at it. Not just bad at it, but I was getting penalties right and left. And I just kept getting called out for things that I was messing up. And I have to say, it was one of the most humbling experiences of

Michal Eisik: 32:00
my life. I mentioned this earlier, like I haven’t had that much experience, like downright failing at things. And this may sound dramatic, talking about something like Netball, but it was like really embarrassing for me. I was not used to this, like being like the worst player on the team. I did not like that feeling at all. So, number one, it was very good for me, like as a teacher and mentor, to appreciate what that feels like when you’re starting to learn something and you’re just really having a tough learning curve. And number two, I felt very proud because I stuck it out. There were a couple of times where I was like, forget it. I just can’t. Like, I’m 32 years old. I just can’t learn this right now. You know, you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. But I knew I was athletic. I had done well in sports, and I was like, if you push yourself hard enough, maybe you’ll get it. And and I did. And it was like a very uncomfortable period, but I now play on my city’s league. And I’m definitely not the best player on my team, but I am very passable and a lot better than I was four years ago. The reason I’m sharing this is because I think experiences like those, maybe some kids encounter them a lot earlier in grade school or high school, but I think those can be really powerful in teaching ourselves that like I can mess up really badly, I can fail, I can fall flat on my face, and it’s gonna be okay. Life is gonna go on. I’m I’m I’m gonna get up and either I’ll learn from the experience and walk away to something else, or I’ll keep getting better at it and eventually master it. But either way, it’s just a learning experience and failure is not catastrophic.

Danny Gavin (Host): 33:44
I know it’s veering off a bit, but you mentioned at the beginning of our chat about you know finding yourself in a room where everyone is really, you know, maybe smarter than you or peers that way. Uh, do you feel like, and you said it’s a it’s a wonderful place to be. Do you feel like that’s the same for children? Like when they’re in a classroom and it’s like that, or do you would say for kids it’s different? And I know our our chat is not about kids, but I was just wondering your perspective.

Michal Eisik: 34:08
Yeah, I actually don’t think it’s great for kids to consistently be in a room where they’re the dumbest ones in the room. I think part of why I was able to embrace my role of being the dumbest one in the room was because I had experienced so much success prior to that, that I had enough confidence to be able to say, okay, I am so bad at business. I don’t know a thing. Let me just learn from all the amazing people in this room. But I didn’t experience it as like a reflection of my own failure. So, so I think that you have to kind of reach a certain maturity or maybe self-awareness, self-confidence to be able to appreciate that experience.

Danny Gavin (Host): 34:49
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know what it’s like? It’s like the transition of like, you were the top kid in eighth grade and then suddenly you go to high school and suddenly like you’re a nobody. But because you had that previous experience, you should lead on that to like that, okay, I’m at my next challenge. I’m gonna build myself up. That’s great. Thank you.

Michal Eisik: 35:06
I had that in in high school. After high school, I went to a post-high school seminary program overseas. The one I went to was considered very, what’s the word? Prestigious. Yes, very prestigious, uh, very rigorous academically, uh, only for like the top 5% of all the high schools, you know, got accepted there. And it was really amazing to see, like it was almost comical. Like, just imagine the level of ego in the room where you have like 150 of the top high school grads from across the United States suddenly in one room. And like you thought you were so incredible, but now you’re like, no, you’re just one of many. So it’s actually a great experience, you know, looking back. It was also tough, but but good, good for my ego.

Danny Gavin (Host): 35:52
Love it. So let’s touch on AI a little bit. A lot of people are coming at AI from a place of fear. You’re not one of them. You just gave this recent really cool webinar about lovable, which I thought was such an awesome idea. Why should marketers lean into this instead of bracing against it?

Michal Eisik: 36:07
Number one, AI is here and it’s only getting better and it’s only getting more powerful. So you don’t have a choice. Like you just have to lean in. That’s number one if you want to stay relevant and competitive. But I don’t love that idea because that feels a little bit like coercion, like, oh my gosh, fine, AI is here. I think that we have to just like take it a step further and appreciate that AI is going to create massive opportunity. Exactly what that opportunity looks like, I’m not 100% sure yet. I have some ideas. And we’re already working like internally on agency offers that deeply integrate AI into what we’re providing clients. And I’m sure you’re doing the same. So at the most basic level, you can start integrating AI into your offers and give clients that much more value. But I know that AI will be creating opportunities in other ways. So I really think that as many doors that AI closes, it’s opening more. And if you can have the vision and the courage to embrace it and brainstorm just how you might be able to use your skill set in this AI era, I think certainly for early adopters, the opportunity is huge.

Danny Gavin (Host): 37:20
Have you had a lot of students reach out about AI? I’m saying like previous students, uh, because you’ve been teaching people for so long.

Michal Eisik: 37:27
Definitely. There has been a lot of mourning, actually. Mourning of the creative process that once was that we’re not really going to get back. And I actually made a video for my students addressing this exact point, among others, and acknowledging that it’s okay to grieve. Like it really is something we have to mourn and accept and let go of. And it’s tough because so many of us creatives, and those are essentially the people I teach, people with enormous amounts of creativity. We derived such joy from the process of sitting there in our room with the Google Doc and just enjoying that feeling of the brain juices at work. And uh AI is is is changing that. There’s no question about it. Like that create that pure creative process is probably going extinct to some degree. So I think that what I was telling my students is that like before we start being all rah-rah and saying, yeah, let’s embrace AI. We can do this, we’re resilient, we are looking toward the future. Like, let’s just stop and acknowledge that it’s it’s it’s sad. It’s sad to let go of something that we loved. It’s okay to kind of feel that sadness and let yourself sit with it before you move on to the next step. So I think there’s been like a lot of that, just people kind of like venting about the fact that they don’t get as much of that joy out of the work as they may have once. And then the second thing that there’s been a lot of discussion about is like, how is this going to affect our jobs and our work? And those are legitimate questions. And for sure, there are students, my alumni of my programs who have already seen a downtick in client inquiries or in the scope of projects because the more basic, straightforward work really is being done by AI. That’s that’s the reality. And that’s why the need to pivot is so great and the need to creatively brainstorm and figure things out is so important. Number one, anyone who was playing at a more mediocre level is having a really hard time. And number two, anyone who was much more execution focused and less on the strategy side is also having a hard time. And number three, one trick ponies, people who are just like so narrowly focused to the point where like maybe they can’t do any implementation or they’re not tech savvy, they’re also having a harder time. That’s not to say that I feel like you have to be a jack of all trades now to be a successful marketer. I do think there’s still room for a real niche specialist in certain places. But even that specialist needs to have a broadness to their perspective, to the understanding to how they approach marketing and marketing problems in order to be successful. I’m curious if if you’ve seen the same.

Danny Gavin (Host): 40:19
No, I I think each one of those points that you bring up are like the problems, but like within those problems, find the solution. Right. So it’s just a matter of, okay, if I know that these things aren’t gonna work, how am I gonna move forward? I always talk about the concept of a T-shaped marketer. You should have a really good understanding of of the of the whole industry, but then you might find the one or two areas that you’re really good at. The other advantage of that is that if you do have to pivot, it’s gonna be easier for you to maybe find another area to work on. So I’m definitely in line with you on that.

Michal Eisik: 40:50
You have to be on your game. You have to see what’s going on, keep your finger on the pulse of the market, test out different offers, and all in all, like see if you can become more of that holistic marketer and strategist and not just that myopic focus on one discipline.

Danny Gavin (Host): 41:11
Well, this was really, really good. I appreciate it. So before I let you go, um, we do this thing called a fast five. So I’m gonna ask you a question. You can either answer like one word, or if you want to talk about a little bit, that’s also okay. So, question number one give me the most important skill for marketers heading into an AI-driven market.

Michal Eisik: 41:27
Judgment.

Danny Gavin (Host): 41:28
One tool, not AI, you

Danny Gavin (Host): 41:30
can’t do your work without.

Michal Eisik: 41:31
Google Docs.

Danny Gavin (Host): 41:33
Agreed. One book or podcast you’d recommend to every marketer?

Michal Eisik: 41:37
This is a little nuanced. I’m gonna go back to that Mark Manson podcast recommendation earlier. The reason I say it’s nuanced is because it’s not really a podcast for marketers. It’s solved by Mark Manson. The reason I am recommending it is number one, I actually hate marketing podcasts. I think it’s because like in my head, conceptually, podcasts are my downtime. And that’s when like I’m not working and I’m doing stuff around the house and listening to podcasts. So like I do just, I just don’t want to be thinking about business anymore. So like I have this visceral like reaction, negative reaction to marketing and business podcasts. The reason I’m still calling out this solved podcast by Mark Manson is because I genuinely feel that the psychology research that he covers not only can enhance your own quality of life, but it gives so much understanding into the human condition and to how we think. And as you know, that is so fundamental to being a great marketer.

Danny Gavin (Host): 42:30
What’s one AI myth about marketing or copywriting you wish would just go away?

Michal Eisik: 42:34
Copy is dead.

Danny Gavin (Host): 42:37
Yeah. And then finally, number five, what’s your best place to vacation or travel, either by yourself, husband, or family? Is there a certain spot that you guys like?

Michal Eisik: 42:46
This is unexpected, but I actually love traveling alone. I often go to visit my family who live overseas. I think I have post-traumatic stress disorder from all those like 12-hour flights with my little kids. So it’s actually like a healing experience for me when I fly alone anywhere, really. But one of my favorite moments is just like sitting on that airplane, doesn’t matter where I’m traveling to, and taking out my Kindle where I’ve downloaded a couple of six best sellers and just opening that Kindle and knowing that no one can contact me for the next 12 hours. Amazing. I highly recommend it, especially if you’re a mother of young kids right now.

Danny Gavin (Host): 43:25
No, I like that. It’s it’s uh very practical advice. Before we wrap up, I would love for everyone to know a little bit more about one of your courses, which is called Profitable Freelancer and where else they should go to connect with you.

Michal Eisik: 43:37
Yeah, thanks. So Profitable Freelancer is a three-month boot camp, business boot camp for creatives who are ready to turn their talent into a profitable, sustainable business. They want to learn the sales, the marketing, the client management, and mindset techniques to get

Michal Eisik: 43:55
serious and build something real and sustainable. That’s a program that’s running probably January, February time. And if you’re a talented creative, I’d love for you to check that out. That’s at pfcourse.com. And in general, I have lots of free resources at my main website, Michale Isac.com. If you’re into marketing or freelancing, then I encourage you to see if any of the resources can be helpful to you. I’m also on LinkedIn. I have like a love-hate relationship with LinkedIn lately. I’ll I’ll like go off of it for like two months and then come back with a vengeance. So um, so I I use I very often am there and I love to connect with new people. So if you’re on LinkedIn, send me a message. I’d love to chat.

Danny Gavin (Host): 44:36
If you don’t follow Michal, which I do, uh, I just think it’s amazing that she does disappear. But when she comes back on, like her posts still get a lot of love and comments and things. So you definitely have uh a great following there that um that I admire.

Michal Eisik: 44:50
Thank you.

Danny Gavin (Host): 44:51
Michal, thank you so much for being here. Obviously, you mean a lot to me and just to the general course world, the from course world. It’s so nice for you not just to be any guest, but uh really appreciate your time and sharing some amazing thoughts.

Michal Eisik: 45:05
Thanks for having me.

Danny Gavin (Host): 45:06
All right, and thank you for listening to the Digital Marketing Mentor. We’ll catch you next time. Thank you for listening to the Digital Marketing Mentor Podcast. Be sure to check us out online at thedmentor.com and at the dmmentor on Instagram. And don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts for more marketing mentor magic. See you next time.