022: Hard Work in SEO Opened Doors to Open Houses with Fay Friedman
Starting her career as an SEO copywriter in the wild west days of internet marketing, Fay Friedman has worked diligently and now finds herself as the CMO at a commercial real estate firm bringing the rental world into the modern marketing era. In this episode, you’ll learn how a university degree isn’t the only path into marketing, how self-motivation, learning, and teamwork are keys to success, and how SEO in e-commerce influences the world of apartment rentals.
Key Points + Topics
- [1:30] Fay Friedman got her start in digital marketing in the wild west of the Internet several years ago. She started as a copywriter for an SEO agency at a time when many things passed checks that would never be approved today. She believes this was a good introduction to the industry because she saw (and utilized) some black and gray hat SEO tactics and got to hear from clients how it hurt them in the long run. Then she spent about a year diving deep into learning the various facets and skills needed in the SEO industry. Having not attended university, she says there’s always a bit of imposter syndrome, but people who’ve learned by doing often have a uniquely effective way of tackling problems.
- [6:53] To her, a mentor doesn’t need to be someone you speak to or see daily. A mentor is someone you can draw inspiration from and give you clear-headed guidance. Her personality is fairly to-the-point, so she gravitates to mentors with a similar approach. She appreciates a blunt, cut-to-the-chase delivery over the more traditional, inspirational coaches.
- [7:45] She notes that not all mentor relationships are necessarily close, and she views Barry Schwartz as her mentor. He writes a blog – SE Round Table. This is how she first started her SEO research. It was like reading Greek when she began, but the more she read, the more she understood. To this day, she still starts most days reading SEO Round Table. As a person, Barry is very humble and helpful. And his blog gives just what she needs: quick bites of knowledge about what’s important in the topic of SEO.
- [9:25] Her current Chief Operating Officer (COO) has mentored and taught her much in the way of soft skills. His personality is different from hers, so he’s shown her a way of quietly leading a team. He proves himself to his team with quiet authority. Through him, she’s learned leadership isn’t always about talking the most or having the biggest meetings; it’s about knowing what your team needs.
- [12:33] When Fay is mentoring others in her organization, she tries to take a step back from the problem. She prefers to give people their space to try and figure out problems independently, being there to offer guidance if needed. She tries hard not to just give them the answer. She has been a guest lecturer, and each subsequent semester that has played her recorded lecture as part of the course, she’s had students reach out to her with questions. She notes what an impact that makes on her. Asking questions is a sign of strength and might be the only way to learn.
- [14:50] When Fay transitioned into the world of real estate, she was thrown into the deep end. When she began, there was no real visual marketing being utilized. She was told the conventional marketing for real estate was ILS management. Further, the ways of reporting on ILS management were very rudimentary and not nearly to the standard she expected coming from the SEO world. She helped open her team up to a whole new world of options for marketing with SEO, Google Ads, social media ads, and retargeting. Then, with improved reporting and tracking, they could start making smarter marketing decisions and better targeting. As she started, she was simply focused on learning. Once she learned a new aspect of the real estate industry, she was unafraid to question if there might be a more effective strategy.
- [19:25] When it comes to how she balances the different channels for a given campaign, Fay knows the number one real estate line: location, location, location. It’s all so regional. It’s challenging figuring out how to target smarter and go beyond the ILS listings, but her goal is always to figure out how to send not the MOST leads but the BEST, highest-quality leads. When she’s first starting to market a newly acquired property, she’ll start by looking at the spend of the previous company. She’ll usually drop the spend on the ILS management down a level or two and set expectations that leads may be slower initially through the transition. But she’s always sure to get the most reporting, even if the managers say she’ll be paying a higher monthly fee than if she got less reporting for a longer period. Then she’ll start with a low-budget ad campaign, slowly see which channels are performing best, and then tweak.
- [24:06] As writing is still her first love, Fay truly enjoys crafting a specific message for the target customers. It’s specific to the property, and she knows to research it and its current demographic. She will look at preferred employers in the area and see if they’re likely to have any new hires coming. Starting a new job and looking for housing is difficult. Can her property team help make that easier by re-arranging up-front costs, helping with the move-in process, or more?
- [25:40] It can be hard to stand out in real estate, especially when most companies have been using just the ILS management method for quite some time. Fay finds the best way to differentiate is through market research. She wants to understand the consumer and demographic of the area truly. If the likely renter is a 9-5 working person, she’ll ask if the leasing office can be open some weekend hours for tours. Ultimately, she’s trying to bring the consumer experience of looking for housing much closer to what it’s like in e-commerce.
- [31:05] Regarding AI and ChatGPT permeating the realm of digital marketing, Fay firmly believes in using it as a TOOL, not a human replacement. AI isn’t going anywhere, and the SEOs that are going to survive will be the ones who learn to work WITH it. Her team does not use it to write property listings, but instead for content, think rough draft level writing that they will then review, edit, and polish.
- [33:32] Fay loves her internet marketing resources and is a devout reader of many newsletters and other publications in the industry. She’s particularly impressed with Google’s documentation. Often times they’ll be searching for an answer, and what better response than straight from the horse’s mouth? She loves Search Engine Round Table, Search Engine Land, and Kristina Azarenko’s technical SEO course.
- [34:45] Fay has achieved fantastic success throughout her career, and she attributes that success the three key elements:
- You must be very self-motivated (especially if you want to work in SEO). You must always be learning and growing and putting yourself out there. You can’t just sit still and expect the answers and solutions to come to you. You have to get out there and work for it.
- Teamwork really does make the dream work. Fay believes she wasn’t always the best at it, but her years working in different offices with different teams have taught her well. It’s essential to build relationships with the people you work with, even if they’re not in your department or vertical.
- Take initiative. This doesn’t mean stepping on other people’s toes. But you need to show that you can do MORE than just what you’re asked. If you’re the person your manager can always count on to go above and beyond, you’re unlikely to get passed over for that next promotion.
Guest + Episode Links
- AJHCo.com
- Fay
- Resources
Danny Gavin :
Hello everyone. I’m Danny Gavin, Founder of Optidge, Marketing Professor, and the host of The Digital Marketing Mentor. Really excited for our guest today, Fay Friedman, who’s the Chief Marketing Officer at AJH Co, a commercial real estate firm. Her journey started as a content writer at an SEO agency, took her through consumer psychology and learning what makes the website perform with nine years in the ecommerce industry and now taking on the beast that is the commercial real estate marketing at AJH Co. Fay describes herself as being on a personal mission to shake up owners and operators, stopping them from pouring money down the property listings drain. Finally, although SEO was more of a focus in the early part of her career, she still shares a lot on the topic and provides advice to those who seek her out. Hey Fay, how are you doing?
Fay Friedman :
Well, thank you for having me.
Danny Gavin :
Yeah, this is not our first conversation, but every time that I do sit down with you is super enlightening. The conversations that we have had and I’ve shared with others, people are so excited. And consider you as a mentor, right?
Fay Friedman :
I hope so, yeah. It’s always fun to speak to like minded, intelligent people.
Danny Gavin :
I can agree on that. Let’s talk about your educational and work background. How did you get here today?
Fay Friedman :
Unlike many others, I’m not college educated. I started out as a copywriter for an SEO agency. This was way back when the Internet was Wild West. And a lot of things passed that wouldn’t work today. I started out doing copywriting. I knew nothing about SEO and in a way it was the best way for me to be exposed to the industry because I saw a lot of Black Hat and Gray techniques that like I did that. And then I kind of heard from clients or competitors who it came back to bite them. There were some dicey situations. But it was the best teacher and the best learning experience for me. So after that initial interesting experience at an agency doing copywriting, I really was intrigued at the entire SEO field. And I spent around a year on my own just playing around, watching YouTube videos, reading Search Engine roundtable and every single blog I could find playing with a family members website. And that was really how I cut my team went you know, SEO and. I feel like in a way that was the best teacher. So there was definitely always, you know, there’s like this imposter syndrome. There’s always going to be a part of me that feels like I’m missing something because I didn’t go to college. You know, I discussed this in the past with a colleague and he’s adamant that when we’re not college educated in a way. There are things that we know better because we have to learn by making mistakes obviously i really value university education. It was an interesting way to get into the industry and for me it’s work. So as you mentioned, I spent nine years in ecommerce and I’m always learning. There was never a day that I didn’t learn something new, which is great at this point over to the real estate side, which is a completely different beast and through my work in SCOI was really exposed to all different. Touch points and marketing. So everything from print ads and as I said, my background is a copywriter to email marketing and the technical specifics of building a website. All of it I ended up touching and that’s really what helped shape my career.
Danny Gavin :
That’s amazing and it makes so much sense why you are someone that people look up to because not everyone goes to college, but sometimes you think like, go to college. That’s how it can become ACMO right, a chief marketing officer. But clearly that’s not the path that you have to take. And there are a lot of ways to get, you know, to the same destination. But I think that the bottom line is hard work and it sounds like you put in the time and the effort to get where you are. So you clearly have a both a gift and passion for the written word. Have you always loved writing? Or was there a specific instance that made you go, ah, I love doing this absolutely i was like editor in chief of my high school yearbook. I was always that this was inborn. I was always a writer. And you know, there’s a part of me that sometimes feels like I’m not writing enough anymore. In my current role, I want to get back to the basics of writing that I love. But yeah, i feel like that’s really foundational to work today as an SEO or really. Full marketing people are appreciating more than ever how it starts with the written word.
Danny Gavin :
Yeah, I know we’re like talking about not college. But I always tell people that if you are going to go to college and you like SEO, why not get a degree in English? Because if you’re a very strong writer, it helps tremendously when it comes to the world of SEO yes so,
Fay Friedman :
Interestingly enough, you also have training as an EMT. What steered you away from a career in healthcare and into a career more in digital marketing writing? I really did the e m t course because my husband was doing it and he wanted me to go with him and it was a great experience and I think it was a really eyeopening way to teach me a little bit about grit. And getting things done. So I never really would have done the healthcare side. I learned some great skills. It was more of the soft skills that I did it kind of after hours in between my job and was a phenomenal program. One of our instructors was actually an Army Sergeant at the US Army and he was so inspiring in his determination and how like he told us stories about things he saw on the battlefield. That was just unbelievable and it was my first year working as a copywriter and the soft skills, I think it really helped me, like, show me that nothing’s impossible. You just have to work hard enough and you can get it done.
Danny Gavin :
It’s awesome, as people know. You know, I run a course and sometimes say like why do I take a course whether it’s it could be an EMT course, a digital marketing course, if and you know, in the end, oh, I’m not going to go into that field, but what it shows you is no matter what. Educational opportunity that you go into. There’s something to gain from and you take it as a part of your psyche and then you can move forward and you don’t realize how much better you are after your, you know, get out.
Fay Friedman :
Yeah, absolutely. So on the on the practical level, it’s definitely been a help for me with my kids. I have a few boys, very active ones. Yeah, they’re definitely. Is that grit? I remember this thirteen years later, this instructor, his name was Steve. It saved with me. And it was. It was. A very interesting thing to do it right when I was starting my career.
Danny Gavin :
All right, let’s jump into mentorship. So, Faye, how would you define a Mentor it?
Fay Friedman :
Doesn’t have to be someone you speak to every day or you see every day, but it’s really somebody who you can draw inspiration from and look for like clear headed guidance that when you’re not sure about something, they’ll be just an objective clear. Perspective for you do.
Danny Gavin :
You feel like there’s any traits that you want to avoid in a mentor, like people maybe that you wanted to be your mentor, but you realized this is not a good fit.
Fay Friedman :
I think my personality is that I don’t go so much for fluffs. So some of them were like traditional inspirational coaches might be amazing but wouldn’t be a great fit for my personality. I think I really go more for people who are straight to the point and you know, cut to the chase.
Danny Gavin :
So let’s talk about some of the most influential mentors over your life. I know you’ve mentioned in the past Barry Schwartz, your current COO Let’s drill down into those relationships.
Fay Friedman :
As I mentioned, some of these are relationships that are not necessarily that close but that they’ve had an impact on me in some way. Barry Schwartz is somebody that I said mentioned I started a CO reading search engine roundtable not understanding anything like I was creating Greek. I not know what I was reading but it was so. Inspiring for me that as I learned more, I really understood what he’s saying. That’s a blog. His blog I he’s been writing it for. I don’t even know how many years, but I still start almost every day leaving search engine around the table because it’s just quick bites with all the most important things I need to know. I did have the opportunity during COVID to do a podcast with him and that was awesome. In real life, he is so kind so open and willing to help. He’s just like humble, easy to read if you have a question he answers. And I love how you know. As I mentioned, my personality works because his blog is exactly what I need, especially at this point in my career. I don’t have time to read long white papers and studies, and he’s just quick bites of what’s important. As I said, he’s not the kind of person I speak to much at all but. Putting out his content and interacting with him on LinkedIn, it’s just been a game changer for me that, like, there’s somebody that I really trust what he writes.
Danny Gavin :
And we’re going to talk about like, your top experiences later, but it must be pretty cool, like the guy who’s been reading to actually go and meet in person and go and do a podcast.
Fay Friedman :
My current CEO, it’s interesting because he’s. Taught me a lot on the soft skill side, leadership and communication and dealing with members of my team. Because you could say that in many ways his personality is very different from mine, but he just has a way of quietly leading. He’s not the loudest guy in the room. He proves himself to his team with like a quiet authority. He knows how to be firm when he needs to. And he knows his opinion and it’s really opened my eyes into different ways that you can lead that it’s not always about talking the most and holding the big meetings, but it’s about really understanding your team and what they need at that given moment.
Danny Gavin :
So true and so powerful. You know, I did personality test recently. You know, I’ve done them with my company, with my agency, but also I did one at Deloitte Greenlab. And it’s just interesting how like sometimes people think the stereotypical CEO or CEO has to be like that certain personality and that’s the only way that you’re going to be successful like the Steve Jobs, you know, the Bill Gates Cutthroat. But it’s wonderful just when you have find these people and organizations like your CEO who can lead and be powerful but doesn’t necessarily have to have that way of being in your face, but more quiet leader and insert his influence that way absolutely and that that’s something that I. Really come to respect and appreciate and try to incorporate in the way I, you know, leave my team.
Danny Gavin :
Were there any mentors who helped you take the leap out of e commerce seo and kind of move into a different arena?
Fay Friedman :
Not really. That was kind of a decision that just like happened to me. It was like COVID. There were things going on personally in my life where I just felt like. Funny joke. I wanted to cut down my hours, so I wanted to take a step back a little bit and I figured, you know what, something like real estate where it’s more lead Gen. And not ecommerce probably won’t be as intense. Well, jokes on me. I ended up, you know, moving up in the department and I’m not the CMO and I’m very grateful. Love my job every single day. It kind of just happened to me, like right before COVID and it was the best thing. I I’ve really found my niche.
Danny Gavin :
You do some guest lecturing and we’re going to talk about in a little bit more. But did your mentors help instill that drive to want to share your gifts and knowledge with others? Or were there certain individuals who like, wow, they do, you know, learn from them?
Fay Friedman :
There definitely have been people who have told me many times, you should teach, you should share. And that’s something i still want to pursue more, feel like I don’t do enough of it. But I love teaching. I actually started out way back before. Any of this, I did teach for two years, elementary students, but I loved it. I loved teaching. It’s something that i really, I enjoy doing. I feel like it’s a natural extension. You’re good at something. You want to share it with others.
Danny Gavin :
Yeah, we can share that point because i taught second grade kids for about six months early on.
Fay Friedman :
Wow, no, I thought sixth grade OK, it’s different totally so now let’s talk about mentoring others. So currently you lead a team of 6. Tell me about how you mentor your teammates and the people who work with you.
Fay Friedman :
I think that I really try to take a step back, and this is something that I’ve learned from my years working under various other managers and seeing the ways that they lead is I really try to give people their space to figure out problems on their own and find the resolution. So I’ll try to give them the tools they need and the resources and I’ll discuss it with them and talk it through. But at the end of the day, I try not to give them the answer i really like when people, when I can put them in the right direction, that they can come to a conclusion on their own because it’s so much more rewarding. And then you’re more involved in seeing the project in the finish line because you made this decision. You really are doing it.
Danny Gavin :
Getting back to the guest lecturing at courses and other sort of speaking opportunities that you have. You’ve mentioned that you really like how people reach out to you afterwards and, you know, create that relationship. If you can share more about that absolutely so it’s the kind of thing that I think stands out to me is that I told for many years an online course, I did a few guest lectures that I know are shown every single year in the same course. This is in audio, yours, some others and. Usually once a year there’s like one student or two students who will reach out and follow up with questions, and those are always the ones who just stand out. I’m always so impressed that they’re really internalizing the work and they have questions. They want to reach out to someone. That’s to me, really impressive i’ve hired people based off of just coming and asking me a question. We’ve spoken about this before on the podcast, but I think in society today. The concept of asking questions. A lot of people think that means, oh, you don’t understand or you’re weak. But really what we have to start shifting to is that questions are a beautiful thing and we should ask more of them. And it actually is a sign of strength.
Fay Friedman :
And I think it’s the only way to learn.
Danny Gavin :
Let’s jump into your area of expertise as the CMO of AGH code. You’ve cracked the code of real estate marketing, which can be a beast. Was there a lot of trial and error or did you know going in where you needed to start and build from?
Fay Friedman :
I was thrown in the deep end. I knew nothing. As I mentioned when I joined the AGH, there was number real digital marketing going on. It was, you know, the marketing was done the same way every other real estate firm does their marketing. And I was here to set up and first start like CEO Google as a little bit like start venturing into it. You know, I was very quickly moved into the CMO role and I really had no idea what I was doing so they told me there’s like a concept in real estate ILS management. Ils is the Internet listing services. So like apartments.com and Zillow and all these listing websites, that’s the conventional way that real estate firms get renders. They pay them monthly packages. You know, burying. Different structures and then that’s it. It’s out of your hands. There’s no real control over your listing saying you can add pictures or whatever, but you have no control over where it’s showing, who it’s showing to or targeting or anything like that. And it shocked me that they’re spending thousands of dollars a month and there’s no way to target. And also the reporting is very arbitrary any. I LS could say this lead came from us. You don’t know if it’s first touch, last touch, You don’t know what the attribution model is. When I came in and I was told, OK so we’re going to hire someone for ILS management, I was like, oh, what’s this ILS management? It sounds scary now when I looked into it, I’m like, it’s nothing, It’s just meeting with the reps. Figuring out the packages touching base twice a year like it’s really not much. So that was like the kind of thing that I learned that is like big in the real estate world for you know, you have these CEO’s who might have multimillion dollar portfolios. They don’t know anything about the marketing side really well they know is we need someone to manage our ios’s when in reality it’s so minor there’s. Obviously many other aspects of marketing real estate where you have the print brochures and the floor plans and all the other parts of it. And then I opened a whole new world of SEO and Google ads and social ads and retargeting and all these other things we could do. And then we started making much smarter decisions and working on better recording and all that kind of thing. But yeah, when I first started, I was clueless and I was kind of really trying to learn. So when I was told things like, oh, you need an ILS manager, I was like, okay before we hire someone, let me just see what this is. But like, yeah, sure, fine, we need it. Let’s do it until there is. We don’t really need it. So slowly, over time, I’ve been whittling down some of the software that like, was grandfathered in that people signed up for and had they’ve been using for years. And slowly I’m going through everything and like, we don’t need this, we don’t use this. For and signing up for new things that are smarter and work better. But I was definitely thrown into the deep end. It’s been a really fun, wild ride. It’s been so gratifying because unlike e, commerce which is real brine, sometimes it’s very competitive and you know you’re fighting with big box retailers here. If you’re doing things right, you’ll see results.
Danny Gavin :
And I love how you question the status quo sometimes, especially when you’re new and you come into a company. You’re just like listening to everyone and following what they say. I’m sure like that attribute that you have of questioning pushed you to where you are today.
Fay Friedman :
I think so. I definitely think that in the beginning people were probably taken aback, like, no, this is the way we do it. And my goal was to just learn and not make any decisions until I understood it. So there definitely were some things that, for example, the marketing department had been doing before I joined that I was like, this is a waste of time. The property managers know this information better than us. They should be doing this. Like we could be doing things that are so much more impactful. Why are we ordering the troubles for Valentine’s Day? Sometimes it’s important Sometimes, yeah, you’re organizing resident events and that’s an important part of the job too. But it was more about, as you mentioned, like learning and then taking a step back and saying no, we’re going to question the status quo as you said and this doesn’t make sense. We can be doing a lot more effective things with our time to drive leads and actual leases.
Danny Gavin :
So choosing the right channels for your target niche is very important. And as you’ve just spoken about with ILS and property listings, often there’s a lot of wasted money. What channels have you found the most success with when it comes to real estate?
Fay Friedman :
It’s really regional for me. It’s really based on the area that the property is located in and the demographic that we’re trying to target. I’m not saying I completely got rid of i l s ‘s we still use. Them because they still dominate Google absolutely and they’re not going anywhere. They do dominate Google, but there are ways to target smarter. So I kind of it’s a work in progress, but my goal is always to make smart decisions and to figure out for each property in each region which ILS is performing the best. And performing the best doesn’t mean sending the most leads, it’s sending the most quality leads that are resulting in application approvals and leases. So that’s something that we actually recently discussed on a chat that I’m part of for like real estate marketers. Somebody said, oh, does anybody know about this ILS And they said, yes, don’t do it. And they’re like why they sent so many leads. And I was like, yeah, go look at your numbers and see how many of these resulted in leases. They’re low quality, they’re not good leads. So I’m not going to see that across the board. But as I mentioned, it’s regional. There’s no blanket statement for each property. I’m going to have to figure out which ILS is sending the most quality leads. And I. Been doing a lot of work to lower our spend and put more money into Google ads being ads, social ads, SEO and I prefer all of these channels a lot more because we have full control and we have full targeting and we could turn it on, turn it off, raise budget, lower budget, play with bidding strategies, you know all this stuff. But we can make smart decisions and we’re not tied into a six month package that you that’s it your stock. So you know, again, I’m not getting rid of my lessons, They’re here to stay. But we can make a lot smarter decisions.
Danny Gavin :
Yeah, for those who follow Faye, they will know that she really hates six month, you know, tied down contracts.
Fay Friedman :
For 12 months, 24 months, it’s like the leasing cycle is really seasonal. So why i just this really bothers me because why would anyone sign up for a 12 or 24 month package when half the year you don’t need those leads?
Danny Gavin :
Yeah it sounds like those companies just want to make a lot of money during that time. And while you don’t make any, all right. So how can businesses figure out which channels are best? Is it trial and error, or is there a best way to conduct market research before going all in? Or partially in into a channel.
Fay Friedman :
Part of it is how are you starting, are you requiring a new property, is it a new build that you had to do the lease up. So that’s really part of it. So let’s say for us we’re, I’m usually going to work on a new property that was acquired. I’ll look at the spend that the previous company was doing. I’ll usually lower it significantly at the beginning and I will explain to everybody. From the start that, yes, there’s a transition period where we’re going to be getting fewer leads. But the same way when you take over, you’re expecting some time with, you know, there might be staff turnover and there might be some work that has to be done in the building. You have to give me a little bit time to learn how to market this building initially. I almost never sign up for the same packages that they were on previously. Usually the very big companies are wasting a lot of ad spend on ILSS so I’ll usually start with like 1 tier lower than they were doing and do very aggressive reporting. Now the reporting is the key. You have to really work on getting better data to figure out where your good leads are coming from, and that’s something we’re always working on. I don’t have it worked out. It’s always a work in progress and we can always get better. That’s usually what I start with. I’ll start with one package lower for a shortterm package and they’ll always tell me I’m paying more per month in a shortterm package. I don’t care. It’s an experimental phase and I’ll start with a very low budget campaign, Google Ads of being as and slowly see which channel is bringing in the most and tweak it. Until I find a good equilibrium. Now we’re always reevaluating during the winter, which is slow releasing season, we definitely raise ad spend. Now springtime is here, we’re lowering ad spend. So that’s kind of a balance that we’re always playing.
Danny Gavin :
With yeah, I love how you totally integrate the concept of a, B testing and trial and error. And moving things up and down, all the traits and all the things that a good marketer needs to do, which is not a surprise, but it’s just it’s good, it’s good to call it out. So how do you craft your ability to tell stories to the channel and audience? How do you meet them at their pain points?
Fay Friedman :
Again, it goes to the specific property and their demographic and who they’re targeting, but one of the things I like is to focus on preferred employers and to focus on somebody who might be. Seeking a job and is looking for housing and thinking if this is this is hard for them to make this transition. So what are the pain points that we can address? Can we make their moving process smoother and easier? Can we offer them a discount of the beginning of their lease when costs are usually high because we just moved or whatever it is? So we’re not always going to be offering concessions, but based on the demographic, I’ll try to. Meet them. So some properties will have a larger percentage of families with children. So then our ads will reflect that. Where I’m trying to show how the property is very family from me and has a playground. Some have a lot of pets. So I’m going to show kids, you know, dog parks. I really try to do a lot of analysis on the demographics of the property or sometimes we’re trying to change the demographics, Sometimes we have a property where we want to raise rents. And we want to bring in a new demographic. So I’m going to change our ads and say, hey, we recently renovated the lobby and this looks like a five star hotel and try to use that to entice, you know, higher income demographic.
Danny Gavin :
So along those lines, with so much competition in the commercial real estate world and competition in these marketing channels, how do you stand out?
Fay Friedman :
It’s tough, but I believe it really comes down to the market research. And how good you are at understanding your consumer the way the traditional IL S’s work is, everybody throws up their listing, tries to make their pictures look as pretty as possible and if it’s not working or for a special lower rent. Whereas I try to be smarter in trying to, as we said, understand the people who are applying and make the process better for that we’ll say, let’s say. If this is a demographic where a lot of people are working, we should open the leasing both us on weekends for tours, try to do things differently that will appeal to them more than just price. Another thing is that we’re in the process of slowly redoing all of our property websites and as you mentioned, EB testing. That’s a huge part of it. It’s the user experience and we have hot draws set up to watch heat maps and watch consumer behavior on the website. And that’s a key part of it. I recently saw a LinkedIn post from I believe it was creating. Some somebody who’s like really smart in the real estate marketing space and he was talking about how an ecommerce you want to buy your website and you buy the dress. And in real estate it’s like, I want to buy a dress. Ok, so let’s this application pay us a deposit. We’ll see if we can give you the dress. We have to think about it. Ok, come back in. Let’s see if the dress fits you. Oh, sorry, the dress is not available. We can give you a different dress And that was such a great comparison to how real estate is really behind in the ecommerce world, which I’m used to. So that’s really something we’re. Very hard to do is to bring real estate closer to make the process smoother, more seamless, more user friendly.
Danny Gavin :
And that fits so well with my next question as we move more to like SEO, when it comes to the transition from ecommerce to commercial real estate, was your approach to SEO the same or did you have to rethink it from the start?
Fay Friedman :
I did have to rethink it was refreshingly. Easier, but in some ways harder because as I mentioned, the Ios’s are always going to have the top spots apartments.com zillowrent.com They’re always going to have the top spots in Google for the high competitive terms. But there’s so much room with the more granular loan tail keywords and the ways that you’re targeting a specific demographic. And in a way those are the higher converting terms, you know, because they’re lower down in the funnel, so. I feel like that’s my sweet spot. I did have to rethink things a lot, but it’s a lot more gratifying. It’s a lot. The success is quicker once you figure something out. I’m not competing with IOSS you know, that’s it there. I’m not competing with them. I’m just trying to find ways to work smarter, not harder.
Danny Gavin :
And how did that sit with the company? Because sometimes, like the CEO’s like, I want to be number one for New Jersey real estate, and if I’m not, then you’re not doing a good job. Obviously that’s impossible. It’s really hard and you’re using the right strategy, the long tail strategy, a lot more strategic. Did you have to sell that or was it more like phase the expert? We’re going to do what she says yeah so I’m really lucky to work in a company that is completely supportive. The CEO and the CEO are always telling me we don’t know this industry, we don’t know this world. Like when I first joined, I used to send them these detailed reports and spreadsheets and they would say you don’t know what we’re looking at, you just do your job and that’s it. So I’m really lucky. They’re incredibly supportive. Their attitude is you’re the expert. Tell us what we need to do. That’s it. And if there’s a problem, we’ll tell it to you and then. You find the solution, we’re not getting them up like it’s fine, it’s all, it’s all yours. That’s something that was rare when I first joined this industry. You know as I mentioned it was in February of 2020 like right before COVID hit and nobody had like an in house marketing team and they were way ahead of their times and that they brought me in and they really wanted to embrace it. Now the real estate industry is definitely going through a very difficult time with leasing and occupancy. And more and more companies are realizing the need, but they’re like three years behind us. So now I’m hearing a lot from other multifamily firms that are looking to bring in house teams and are looking to change things up, but they’re trying to play catch up. So I was very lucky that I found this company and they’re really ahead of their times. But yeah, their attitude in general is just you do what you need to do. And sometimes like i remember. A year ago or so i was speaking to another multifamily company that was very large and he said you have a team of six people. Like they looked at me like, okay, your CEO is crazy. Who needs to spend so much money? What do they do all day? And I tried to explain to him, well, I can break down each member of my team and what they do. And he was like, no, this is crazy, We do it for much cheaper. Well, don’t worry, now they’re looking to hire someone and ask.
Danny Gavin :
Yeah wow. I mean I’m just it really seems like a match being in heaven like such a great company with proper leadership and then you’ve got yourself who so insightful able to you selfdeveloped, created who you are and what you do and it’s like a match being made in heaven. It’s really it’s really cool i’m excited both for you and you know and the company as well it’s really great. So what trends do you see coming along and changing an SEO Obviously the biggest thing around now is like a I and chat g p t. Would love to know your opinion on the matter.
Fay Friedman :
I think that there are a lot of Seo’s that are like, no chat gbt, don’t ever use it, we embrace it. And there’s actually a member of my team who started using it right away and I love the initiative. Like before I even started using it, she came to me like, hey, I did some really cool stuff with chat gbt, can I use it? I’m like sure. This is awesome. So I love when they take initiative like that and it was great and we’re using it. We’ve interpreted into our processes. I think that in general it’s not going anywhere. It’s only getting smarter and the s e o ‘s and the content marketers and the people who are going to survive are the ones who are integrating a I and chat g p t into their work and come get with smarter decisions because of it. Like if you try to fight it, I think if you say like, don’t use it, it’s the devil, it’s everybody else’s use it. So I would say rather let’s embrace it and figure out ways. To use it and make us smarter and quicker and better, I’m not going to say we definitely have some content that we write completely from scratch and there’s a lot of content that we say throw it into chat TPT. We edit it, we fix it, and it’s good. Google says that they don’t like chat TPT content. I want to see how they’re checking it. I don’t know.
Danny Gavin :
That’s really interesting, but I agree you have to find a way to integrate it because the people who. Aren’t doing that. Are going to be left behind. I don’t know if you can answer this question, but is the company using chat gpt for like listings and coming up with like content to describe a property?
Fay Friedman :
Not really. We’re the only department within the company obviously that uses it and we still have a very hands on approach because I have you know an in house team that’s there’s enough people that we have the manpower. So yes, we’ll use chat gpt to save time to like there’s work that we used to ask for the freelancers. And now we use Chat G PT4 but we do the same thing that we would have done with the freelancer. So that’s where I’m like, it’s the same thing. We would have sent it to our freelancer and then edited it, fixed it up. So now we’ll do the same thing. We’ll give it to chat g p t and then we’ll edit it and fix it up. But the core work we’re still doing ourselves. And I think it’s the creativity and the understanding of your consumer and your demographics that’s not changing. Like we have to have the right mindset. And then know how to use chat GPD to further our goals.
Danny Gavin :
So in addition to Search Engine Roundtable, how do you currently stay up to date with SEO and are there any other resources that you recommend?
Fay Friedman :
Yeah, so I love Google’s documentation. I feel like you’re reading from the horse’s mouth. Martin Split is awesome. Danny Sullivan like. These guys, John Lehr, they’re so helpful and they give us so much good information and that sometimes I feel like when we’re looking for other things, it’s like they already answered you. So why are we looking for more answers? And I’m guilty of doing it myself. Like I don’t like that answer. Let me find another one. But I think Google’s documentation is really great. I did sign up for Christina Azaranco’s Technical SEO course because I felt like that was something that I was lacking. I wanted to brush up on my technical skills. I can’t say I have time to do many courses. I don’t go to conferences and that’s something I would like to go to more. But in general, yeah, I tried to read Search Engine LAN and read some of the blogs and I try to pinpoint the skills that I think I’m missing and brush up on those as they come about. So like for example a I and chat GPC, there’s a member of my team who’s really doing a great job with it and she’s teaching me. And for me, that’s the best.
Danny Gavin :
It’s hard to be an expert in everything, but if you have a team, you can do a great job of spreading out the responsibilities and what you need to do. Faye, you are successful, thank God. What are your keys to success and what can people take away? What are the three keys to success?
Fay Friedman :
I think it draws a lot on my background and how I got to where I am. I’m very self motivated and I think that’s. A trait that you have to have if you’re doing SEO because the industry is always changing. So it’s not like you could say I went to college, I learned it and that’s it. I’m done. I do the same things now. You always have to be reading and growing and asking questions and you can’t wait to be handed. Information or opportunities. Like you have to go out there, get it for yourself, learn for yourself. You have to be very self motivated cuz if not, you’re gonna be a dinosaur in the industry. So like, I know I’ve spoken to people who have told me you do, I see. Yeah, years ago I used to do that stuff like throwing keywords on the page, right? And I think to myself, yeah, but that’s why. You’re not doing it anymore. That’s why you weren’t successful, because you have to really be self motivated to push yourself further in order to succeed in this industry. And I think that’s true of anything in tech really, because it’s changing so quickly. Have to be very self motivated to keep up and not become a dinosaur. I think my second thing would be teamwork, and that’s something that I’ve definitely gotten better with over the years. Working with different teams. I can’t see necessarily I was the best at it from the start to be very honest. I think my years of working in different office environments taught me that it’s really important to build relationships with. The people you’re working with, even if they aren’t your direct peers, like even if they aren’t directly in your industry, you never know when those relationships can help you. And it’s just a really good thing to be well liked, have good relationships. You never want to be the one in the office who’s like very obviously making sure to have relationship with your supervisor or the person who you think is going to get you to the top. It’s good to be have good relationships with all of your. Coworkers and peers. And the last thing I would say is to really take initiative. Like when you’re working wherever you are, you want to offer to take on your projects, see them through until the end. Doesn’t mean stepping on other people’s toes, but you want to really try to show that you could do more. You know, when people talk about how they’re passed over for promotions, it’s a very unfortunate thing and sometimes, very often, obviously it’s nobody’s fault there are other circumstances. But I feel like a lot of that has to do with are you the person that they can rely on to always say yes to a new project and see it through till the end? Or are you going to come to your supervisor? I hit a roadblock and now I’m stuck. You know it’s always OK to come to your supervisor and discuss something, but then you want to be that team member that they can rely on to find the solution.
Danny Gavin :
All right. It’s time for phase top three. Faye, what are your top three experiences?
Fay Friedman :
So top three experiences I think are things that push me out of my comfort zone. So the first would be that last year my kids told me how to ski and that really was out of my comfort zone and it was so awesome. Like to see my kids get such satisfaction out of the teaching process can say I’m nearly as good as them. But that was just. So great. My next one would be speaking. So public speaking and also in like a meeting with heavy hitters, with influential people. It’s the kind of thing that, you know, I didn’t take public speaking courses and I know that most universities offer that. So it’s not something that necessarily comes naturally to me, but I really enjoyed, you know, when I was recently at a meeting and there were a lot of very influential people. And it was a great experience for me to see that if you have something smart to say and you could be concise and just get your point across and not the loudest or longest person in the room, it really, you know, people respect that as right in the beginning of this conversation. I really enjoy. Simulating conversation. That was definitely something that I enjoyed. And the last one I would say is also a personal kind of thing that pushed me out of my comfort zone, which would be when I was on vacation and I went snorkeling for the first time. That was also the kind of thing that like way pushed me out of my comfort zone. But it was awesome. And you know, it’s those experiences that really, that really, like, show you. Push yourself and good things come out of it.
Danny Gavin :
Yeah, those are all great. I’m just like envisioning you on the ski hill with your kids and you falling down and getting up like they I.
Fay Friedman :
Love talking about?
Danny Gavin :
It, yeah, I can imagine with my own wife, I think, yeah, that’s so cool. I love it. So before we wrap up, what are you currently working on? What’s your next big project? What’s the next big thing?
Fay Friedman :
Number one is reporting. As I mentioned, it’s something that’s always a work in progress, but we’re working now on like a much more sophisticated system of reporting. It’s challenging because we’re working with some older software that the company uses and we have to like find workarounds. It’s ratifying when things work because it’s challenging. So number one is reporting because everything stems from that. I would say Another big thing is, as I mentioned, we’re working on redesigning all of our websites. So when that’s done, that’s going to be like a huge milestone. We’re more than halfway there, which is really nice. And a big thing that’s Next up for us is using our current channels in a smarter way. So we’re building out a new process for our Google ads where we’re currently using the strategies and targeting, but now we’re working on something that will make it smarter where we’re going to take. The actual information about leases and feedback creating look like audiences like getting a lot more sophisticated and I’m excited because I feel like that will just really take us to the next level.
Danny Gavin :
So where can listeners learn more about you and your business?
Fay Friedman :
So our website is almost complete. That’s hopefully going to be launching in the next week or two. So that’s the main company website, but. If anybody wants to get in touch with me directly, they’re more than welcome. I can share my email address and I’m always happy to discuss with anybody anything that comes up in the industry super well, Faye, this has been such a delightful conversation. Like I said at the beginning, you are truly a mentor for a lot of people that I deal with where someone can get involved in an industry maybe not know exactly where they’re going, but work hard. And then get to the top of the peak. So thank you for being a mentor to so many. Really appreciate you being on the digital marketing mentor and thank you listeners for tuning into the digital marketing mentor. We’ll talk to you next time thank you for having me?
Fay Friedman :
Thank you for listening to the Digital Marketing Mentor Podcast. Be sure to check us out online at the DM mentor.com and at the DM Mentor on Instagram. And don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts Spotify. Or wherever you listen to your podcasts for more marketing mentor magic. See you next time.