033: College, Challenges, Careers, and Coaching with Shaina Keren

Danny Gavin    00:05 

Hello everyone i’m Danny Gavin, founder of Optidge, Marketing Professor and the host of the Digital Marketing Mentor. I’m super excited to introduce Shaina Keren today. Shaina and I have been friends and colleagues and have done a lot of work together. Shaina is a career consultant at SK Career Consulting. She’s a career coach who helps people figure out what kind of work they will enjoy and succeed at and how to make that a reality. She’s a master at helping people discover their natural talents and create successful careers doing what they do best. On top of this, she’s contributed to numerous publications and podcasts and has produced a book, Business Bytes 10 experts break it Down. Today we’re going to talk about career building and creating a personal, professional brand and of course, mentorship. Shaina, how are you?

 

Shaina Keren    01:10 

Amazing so exciting to be here.

 

Danny Gavin    01:13 

Yeah, me too you like I said before, usually you’re the one who’s interviewing me, so it’s nice to be able to turn the tables today, yeah?

 

Shaina Keren    01:20 

Yeah thank you.

 

Danny Gavin    01:21 

Where did you go to school and what did you study?

 

Shaina Keren    01:23 

That’s a story and of itself, because that’s not what most people expect. But I don’t know that there’s a straightforward path to doing what I do i don’t think anybody who’s 18, you know, wakes up and says I think I’m going to go help other people choose their careers, cuz I just can’t figure it out. And so i went the very straightforward path to getting good degree in education. Growing up, I just thought that I would be a teacher there are, you know, plenty of teachers who I had over the years so I felt like we’re role models so I think I wanted to emulate. I’m always the kind of person who wants to connect other people, wants to give, you know, teach. Share and that hasn’t changed but the you know the venue has changed the pathway for that And so and I was also looking I think a big consideration of mine when I was you know finishing up high school and making that decision was something that would be family friendly i knew that you know big goal of mine was to raise a family and as much as a career was important to me i wanted to make sure that I would be able to, you know, do both at the same time and i watched so many people growing up on sort of my parents generation, you know the. Women who, you know, had their degrees and then stopped working to raise a family and then, you know, when I by the time I was that age, they were all in their forties, fifties and struggling with getting back to work and I knew I didn’t want that to happen to me so I wanted something that I could work my way through and you know, balance that so I thought that education was the answer because of the schedule and you know, raising kids and all that. So I got a degree through Mercy College in a Master’s in Education and started working as a see it. I was living in the New York City area, so. Working in preschools, one-on-one with kids, it was exciting for the first few months maybe. I think when I got like new cases and there were some challenges, like I was given children with selective mutism at the beginning for some reason I had a number of cases so that was an exciting challenge until I figured it out and then it took about two weeks to hack. You know the next child or hack is not a good word for a child, but you know just to figure out how to get to them, how to you know what was really going on, the underlying issues. And I, you know, within a year was really bored out of out of school and it was, it was scary because I had college loans to pay back and I was the primary breadwinner, you know, for my household i was married i got married pretty young so, you know, my income was what we’re relying on and it took me a long time to admit to myself and to the people around me that I really wasn’t. Happy and I was bored and so I spent a long time reading because that’s what I do if I have a question i look for a book that has the answer and I spent a lot of time. I’m trying to figure out, you know, is it the job is it me is there something that I can do differently maybe there’s a specialty that I, you know, I can learn. I went for courses and reading. I thought maybe I’d become a reading specialist and went through a number of iterations i went through a point where I thought. Maybe it’s the, you know, the one-on-one i was in classroom then I thought maybe it’s, I need to have my own business. So I opened a daycare, you know, because at that point i had my third child and I was looking for something where I could combine, you know, what I was doing. And eventually, about 10 years later, you know, throughout a couple of jobs and trying out different things within this field of education because I felt like, well, I was still paying off my college debt the entire time, so. It was really hard to look back and just say, you know, this was a mistake. This isn’t, you know, and I don’t know that it was a mistake for the time i think with the information, the limited information I had at the time, it was a really a good decision. But it wasn’t working for me a decade later, let’s put it that way. And so at that point, I really dug into careers and testing and how this thing works. And finally there was one book that had the answer for me and I read. This book called the Pathfinder that I found on Amazon, and you know, at some point through the book I said, okay, I need to speak to the person who wrote this book. Like, I’m going to do whatever it takes to get this person to train me because I want to be able to do you know what for other people, what this book itself was able to do for me and I actually did and Nicholas, for the author of the Pathfinder, became one of my greatest mentors. And that’s how I got into the field of career coaching.

 

Danny Gavin    05:39 

It’s crazy and it’s so cool because your path, because of the way it went like you invest so much into an area and then, you know, it took you a really long time to figure out that it’s not for you. But I mean, I think that makes you so much more relatable to the people that you actually help day-to-day Yeah, I.

 

Shaina Keren    05:54 

Speak to so many teachers, therapists of all kinds, you know, whether they’re in psychology or, you know, speech therapist is a big one that I think was popular, you know, to get a degree in 1015 years ago. And I get to speak to so many of those people and I think. One of the reasons they’re attracted to working with me is because, like, I’m not going to look at them like they’re an idiot like they made a mistake. Like you did a really smart move at the time and it’s really not working for you and that’s okay and you don’t need to continue. And I think that’s a message that resonates with people and then I’m able through my personal experience, to really dig into helping them see, like there’s so many other aspects to you. There’s so many other parts of your personality that you have naturally that you don’t need to worry that you haven’t spent the last decade or two. Owning but you have some natural skills you know, or some transferable skills that you can you know without so much effort put into another industry and you don’t really have to stay stuck.

 

Danny Gavin    06:47 

So talking about transferable skills, you know, how would you compare working in a daycare setting versus like professional and adults that you’re working right now? Like how did that transfer over?

 

Shaina Keren    06:57 

It’s really not too different. I mean i found myself giving a toddler analogy on the training yesterday and it was to a team. Sometimes I come to businesses and i work with individuals. More of the time it’s for testing, for hiring or for you know how do we use this person, the right thing but I happen to be you know part of a meeting where I was just leading like some next steps for a group of sales people. There were some new trainees there and they were just saying how like when they get a know they message someone on LinkedIn and they get a know. No, They take it as a no. And I was like, have you ever tried feeding a new food to a toddler? Do you know how many times you have to try until they’re comfortable it doesn’t mean they don’t like bananas because they spit it out it means it’s a new piece for them and you need to keep trying. And so I mean, I find like a lot of similarities. And I think parenting business, to me, it’s all about understanding people. Understanding I mean. The best negotiator is like a 10 year old, right you know, can I say, yeah, 10 more minutes, Can I keep reading? So I think that like a lot of business skills, if you’re focusing on the psychology behind it, it’s very similar.

 

Danny Gavin    08:09 

So talk about mentorship, let’s get into that so Shana, how would you define a mentor?

 

Shaina Keren    08:13 

I actually found myself looking up an article that I recently wrote in the SPA magazine about mentorship to see what I have to say on it. And i thought it was interesting. I still agree with my point there, I believe, which was, you know, I wrote that there are three kinds of mentors there’s the kind that you’ll never meet. Like, you know, you might listen to people and you know podcasts, read their books. You know, either because they don’t, you know, aren’t alive. Anymore or because they’re just way too far, you know, out of reach they’re not the kind of person that you can just get a meeting with, you know and then they’re the ones who you can pay to meet, you know, sort of like experts, you know, like a, like a therapist or, you know, some sort of expert professionally, you know and then they’re the ones who are sort of, you know, right at the top, like not out of reach but if you know, do the right things, they’ll be able to get there and so to me, a mentor isn’t somebody who. If you want to emulate everything about them, I think that’s what a lot of people look at a mentor as and then they get upset when their mentor say gets divorced or you know does something like that they’re you know they’re just like I can’t believe it i, you know my whole life and to me like i think i have the same approach when I come to work i am trained to look at each person and see their best qualities. You know anyone who I’m sitting with as a client, That’s my focus and it’s funny because I think I’m a sort of a. I don’t consider myself not a judgmental person, but I think that you can take that judgmental lens and use it for the positive or for the negative. And so when I’m, you know, meeting someone, I’m going to focus, my focus is automatically on what’s amazing about this person and after they use that. And so I think I look at mentors the same way. It’s what does this person know in a certain area that I can learn from, I can emulate, benefit from. And to me it’s, you know, an opportunity to learn from someone who’s done something that you know, you think is incredible.

 

Danny Gavin    10:01 

It’s amazing you bring that example of people looking at mentors like they’re perfect, and then that thing happens to that mentor, like they get divorced and it just changes the world like, why did I ever look up at this person can I still look at, like, I’m thinking myself, I can think of, you know, two or three people where I’ve had that feeling like they were the world to me. And then you see, like something happened in the relationship and I was like, ooh, should I even be looking at them and I think it’s important, like to separate, right? People have good, people have bad. You know, no one’s perfect, and it’s okay to look at different people and learn and look up at two different aspects, because no one’s perfect, especially ourselves exactly yeah. I mean, I feel like, you know, if anyone would take any of our lives and you know, dissect them, you know, from every which area, there would be something that we don’t want them to emulate. But that’s that doesn’t take away from all the wonderful parts and I think that. People just want like a black and white, good guy, bad guy. You know, this is an amazing person you know, they’re on a pedestal and then you know, like, no, everyone who’s human is human and I think that it’s okay and to look at each person for what there is to learn from and I think it’s very rare the person who can be a, you know, a personal role model, a spiritual role model, you know, someone who you can follow in every area i think that’s one in many billions. Yeah and I think we do ourselves a disservice if we can just take, you know, take what we can from, you know, different pieces and shop around and it’s the same thing i find bringing up books again When you read a book, you know, you can’t just take every book and just say okay, I, you know, this author is amazing everything that they say is, you know, is incredible and I should listen to it i think it’s really important to look at, you know, content the same way you look at people with a little bit of a critical eye and you know, do I agree with that?

 

Danny Gavin    11:41 

What do I think of that you know, and take it in the way that works for you, who have been some of your most influential mentors? I know you’ve mentioned Nicholas Lor you’ve mentioned Jacob Engel in the past. Let’s talk about them.

 

Shaina Keren    11:51 

You know me pretty well, Yeah. Those are the big ones for me. You know, it’s Nick, who I mentioned from the book, who, you know, I read the book and as I read the book, I felt like he was talking to me. And I think it’s, you know, not often that you, that you read something from an author, you know, sort of like going to lecture and everybody in the audience has that feeling but it takes someone who really understands. Human nature, human characteristics, human challenge, you know, to really get in there and you know, just with the dose of humor that you can just laugh at yourself and our, you know, human frailty and stupidity sometimes. And I really connected with him and then the best part was that he was actually even better in real life. You know, when I got to connect with him and he became a mentor through, you know, I initially was through pay. You know, I hired him to train me and I took his career coach, you know, certification. And you know, to me that was most worthwhile opportunity. Content was amazing but getting to connect with someone who’s who did this for the last 40 years, who’s been through every scenario, who can answer questions, you know, that you could never find in a book, like to me that was incredible and we still have a really close relationship. You know, I’ll call him up when I get stumped and he’s in his eighties now but he’s still the expert to be And you know, he says like, oh you know, I’m not up to date i don’t know what’s going on and to me, like you can never be up to not up to date with human nature and you know the job titles can change the technology contain but. Knowing people, figuring out what the right questions to ask them, how to get into, you know, their core, what makes them tip, what makes them amazing, that’s something that doesn’t go away and so you know, I really, that’s someone who I’ve gained tremendous amount and just understanding, you know, careers and people and how they can go together optimally.

 

Danny Gavin    13:28 

And what about Jacob Engel?

 

Shaina Keren    13:29 

I had met him between my careers in education and career coaching. There was a short period where I saw an ad in the paper and somebody was. Looking for like a Commission only sales it was like mobile marketing it was like when phones just came out and there was like you can send people text messages and so I went and spoke to him and he said do you want to come to this training then I’m going to. So it was Jacob Engel running this sales training. And he was teaching the principles from don’t tend to teach a kid to ride a bike at a seminar. And i loved it and I think I stayed and spoke to him a little bit after and it just to me just made so much sense it was like the first time where I connected, like everything that I learned about people with business. I’d never seen that before. And so then you know that I completely forgot about that episode. But then when I started Premier Coaching, I the only social media I’d ever been on because I once had it for a job was LinkedIn and so I’m completely not a social media. Person, but I figured it well, let me just update my profile there and see if there’s anyone there and then Jacob Engel, who I knew from this training, a message to me, hey, I see what you’re doing, you know, So I messaged back and it was like probably the first message i got him linked in from a real person who I knew and this is so cool and like, we’re doing business connections. I told him a little bit about what I did and he said I’d love to hear more you know, he gets close all the time although he doesn’t do consulting, he does business coaching and so he’s somehow become a resource in the community when people get stuck career wise, You know, he’s an address that they go to. And so he said, you know why you come down for a coffee chat and I did. And I remember giving this like, I guess it was like my first pitch, but I didn’t realize I was giving a pitch but I sort of brought like a bunch of materials and sat there and explained to him. And i honestly, I didn’t think he would take it seriously because he’s such an expert on people and he’s been doing trainings for so many years. And I remember just, like finishing and being out of breath, like this whole thing and why this testing is amazing and, you know, the whole aptitude testing and how it works. And his response, like, really made such a difference i don’t remember what he said, but it was just like he was, he was really impressed and he was like, wow, this is incredible there’s a need for that nobody’s doing this like, yeah, i’m in full support. And then he started sending me people and it was just like, oh, wow. You know, you can say you believe in it and you agree with it you can make me feel good but then he really trusted me. You know, people he knew. Business context, I think those were my first referrals and then you know that continued in terms of personal mentoring you know, I met with him a number of times over the years you know, when I’m working through, you know, a challenge and he’s amazing he’s trained by Stephen Covey of the Stephen Covey Institute, so in the Seven Habits so I’ve trained in that with him and that really shaped my views and how I approach business and how everything has to be a win, win. And just all those principles, I think lay foundations for me that are things that I don’t think I would have been exposed to otherwise. And so that’s been extremely helpful to me over the years and, you know, just having someone who’s been there, who is an expensive coach, you know, who’s willing to give me the time to just show me what I can do, introduce me to my. Business client, you know, fully encouraged me to help me figure out, you know, when I was like well how do I charge them what do I, you know, how do I do it you know, I’m just laying down step by step and just like no question, of course you can do this and then, you know, going in and being able to do things that I didn’t expect that Bill to do has been extremely, you know, life changing and meaningful and establishing my career.

 

Danny Gavin    16:50 

You know, I think it’s fascinating i think, like the unspoken words of what you just told me is that it’s amazing how motivated you were to get up to meet people. And you know, not necessarily, you know, trained in this area of career coaching, but you really, you know, pushed yourself to move forward and created this amazing opportunity to speak with different people, to meet with different people, not be scared to go for a coffee and to talk. And it’s amazing that through that initiative you’ve, you know, that started this amazing career that you can now help so many others. And I think people are scared often to like go out there and to have that meeting and to talk. But you can see that when you do actually put your mind to it and, you know, create that opportunity, things can come your way.

 

Shaina Keren    17:36 

Absolutely i mean, I met with so many people and that part wasn’t hard for me it was, it was like scary because like they might think I’m an idiot and what do you think you’re doing? But and you know, even Nick, who I consider more, you know, less of a business mentor and more of the career coaching mentor and to me, I. Separated that you know, you’re really good at this i’m going to learn that from you. You’re really good at this i’m going to take that from you, he told me on one of our initial phone calls like if you think that you could do this full time and make a living from it, like don’t even bother, you know? And I chose to, you know, file that away in a less important file and, you know, keep it in mind, but not let it make a decision for me. And I think I was just like, so passionate and I get like this about things that I believe in, about like spreading this with the world, that I just can’t help myself like anybody who wants to listen, I will talk about this.

 

Danny Gavin    18:26 

Well I’m glad you didn’t listen to him on that one because that would have been a real pity. It’s also interesting that you mentioned before that like social media, so not your thing, because if anyone knows Shana, she is really amazing on LinkedIn. Her posts are very thoughtful i would say she’s definitely a bit of an influencer moving into you mentoring others so obviously you’re mentoring others through social media without even potentially meeting those people, but also you’re mentoring your clients, also new coaches that are working for you. So what are your keys to mentoring success?

 

Shaina Keren    18:55 

It’s fascinating to me how I think teaching has happened for me, like in this way with individuals and like you said, the people i think the people who I feel best about helping are the people who I never met like when I get a random message or I’ve met people at social events and they’ll say, like, oh, you know, my husband went in and asked for a raise because he’s been reading your post for a while and he would have never had the courage to do it otherwise and I’m like, that’s amazing because. I hope and I assume that for every person who tells me, they’re 10 people who didn’t tell me and so I’m able to impact you know a lot more and that’s what I think is incredible about social media. You know my the people who I know is very limited but the people who can read what I what I share out there is unlimited so that’s amazing to me to me, to answer your question, you know, mentoring, I think it’s a real struggle between being able to show someone what they. Are capable of and then you know I’m I tend to shoot all the way you know as like in the Myers Briggs like the intuitive you know personality who’s just like you know total six cents. And futuristic and vision and imagining what could be so any conversation I have with someone i work on, you know, i think it’s helpful where I can see the possibilities for them and think that picture for them. But then I always need a real look back and take it to OK, but now what should I do today? Like what’s my next step And i very hard to be theoretical in the beginning so that they can expand their minds because people’s minds hold them in so much because they the you know, the bus, you know, but this or but that right? Just stop them, you know well that doesn’t make sense because I can’t afford it so then they don’t let themselves imagine. And then so like one of the biggest gifts the person could give themselves is if forget about reality just for a minute, you know, imagine possibilities and if you could do, you could become a doctor, then how would your life look different? What would you be happy, You know what would give you that feeling satisfaction okay now you’re not going to become a doctor right. But what are the pieces that we can pull out of that are practical And then what can you go do tomorrow and I like to see people, you know, not doing theory in careers but practical getting a new job, switching, you know, switching up what they do gaining a new skill. And so to me mentoring is showing some of what they’re capable of but then showing them, you know, where to place their foot necks and sort of steps and then reminding them that all they need to know is 1, maybe two, maybe three steps ahead. But then you will never know exactly what’s going to happen. If anyone would have asked you know me or any of the other amazing people who you’ve had on the, you know, on the podcast, if they could have predicted the theme that I seem to hear when I’m listening, you know, to other people on your podcast is like none of their careers were really predictable. It’s sort of you have to take the next right step and then you know, and then do that, you know and then the other thing that I think is a big deal is people for some reason harp so much on what they’re bad at, right? Like, why do we spend so much time thinking about it and I guess, you know, I read this recently about school. So if you’re bad at math, right, like I was and many are, then the only subject that you’re going to really invest in tutoring and extra time out of school and all that extra attention is on the subject that you’re bad at right now. Maybe that makes sense for school, but we shouldn’t apply that after school, right like, I’m bad at math and I use a calculator, I use a bookkeeper, I use an accountant. I don’t do any of the things that I’m bad at and I focus on the maybe it’s just a couple of things that I’m good at. But if I focus on my career building around those things exclusively, you know that’s where you find success. And so I think that people need to do that when they’re finished with schooling. Focus on the things that they’re naturally good at and the things that you’re bad at you will only be able to make incrementally better. You’ll never be incredible. So focus on the things that are your natural gifts and then you could be the best.

 

Danny Gavin    22:46 

Well, it makes me think of so many things but like, especially with children, and I think I’ve heard that concept before, it’s like, why do we spend all the money on the tutoring? Like let’s find those things that they’re really good at and spend all the money on taking those talents and you know, making it flourish. You know, I think, I think people in general try to find excuses because it’s hard right to, you know, to change, to work a little bit it’s much easier to find the reason out. I’m like, oh, I can’t do this. So it’s great that there are people like you who can help, you know, be sort of a cheerleader and find those special. Traits that people have that can make them successful and say, hey, guys, like, forget about all this bad, but you need to focus on the good and you can really do a lot with it.

 

Shaina Keren    23:25 

Yeah and I think the reason to do that in childhood is because you know, the kid who’s good at, you know, reading and who just gets a chance to read will really not develop as a wellrounded person if we let them neglect all the other parts but once you’ve got the foundational you can make a calculation you could bake a cake you can do the things that you need to do like. After that it might not be as useful anymore.

 

Danny Gavin    23:46 

Let’s move over to your area of expertise, which some people would say it’s a career coaching, but I’m gonna say it’s building a personal brand and helping people do that. Shana, you clearly have a knack for educating others. Did you always know this about yourself?

 

Shaina Keren    23:59 

I think if you ask my younger siblings, they’ll say yes. So I think I was always a bit, I don’t know if the word is bossy, but as a kid, but I sort of, you know, always i think, you know, like study things and figure out what I think is the best way of doing it and then going ahead and doing it and maybe getting frustrated if other people don’t do it that way. So that might also be a weakness but I tried to turn it into a strength at this point in my life. So I think the answer to that is yes you know, i thought as a teen I worked in camps, you know, with kids who are exploring Judaism and I was always in a teaching role so that’s nothing new to me i just am doing in a completely different way than I expected.

 

Danny Gavin    24:36 

Is there one quick exercise people can use to start their journey to figure out their strengths and affinities?

 

Shaina Keren    24:42 

Absolutely yeah it’s so easy and everybody should do it and you can do it for free so please do just the basics. You know, the personality type, the Myers Briggs i’m a big fan of it. A lot of the complaints against it or hesitations to it are I think when people don’t understand that it’s not supposed to be the whole life solution. It’s just a little bit of useful information that could be really helpful. And seeing people discover like that they’re a true introvert or true extrovert, I think is like so helpful to people that, you know, you’re looking for four basic pieces of information about yourself, right the introversion, the extra virgin that you know, are you more down to earth or, you know, more futuristic, more emotional, more logical, more prime, more organized. And it’s amazing to hear the comments that people have in sessions when we figure this out like, oh, that’s why my wife is like this and that’s why my mom is like that and no wonder, okay well, if you just you know, once you understand that, you understand human nature i think is the secret to being successful anywhere. And so there’s a free test. I have a free quiz on my website at shannoncare.com where you can watch a video and answer 4 questions about yourself and then you’ll get the description. You can go on personality.com if you prefer, like a longer multiple choice 16 personality.com look for a longer multiple choice questionnaire and then on the u s dot labor dot gov i believe it is there are two tests, like there’s the Holland code and there’s another one. You sound like it looks like you’re familiar with that and just some like there are plenty of free career tests that might not be the full answer and I find that because they’re online, multiple choice tests. So it’s sort of whatever you put in that you’ll get out so, you know, depending on your mood or your stage of life, you might get different responses, but that’s a really good start. You know, start with finding out are you more investigative are you more, you know, psychology or you need more business focus. The point where I think it’s like you want to you maxed out of what that can offer you is when they start making career suggestions. Because those algorithms are limited by what you put in. And the career choices I don’t think are necessarily like updated on a fast basis as new jobs are created. But I like to use it to the same way, use mentors like to give you some information so then you can take it yourself and figure out who. Ok, it says engineer would be a good thing for me. I wonder why well, that’s because I’m interested in mechanics, interested in nature. Well, how could I apply that do I want to apply that? Like, I think it gets a little bit more complicated at a certain point where you want to make your own decisions you know, just because it there’s a recommendation that that’s it for my lifestyle and that’s why I work with people like doing aptitude testing, which gets more specific and we don’t just rely on data, we also get to know the whole person. But definitely like starting with figuring out your personality type, your Holland code, all those free resources, the strength Finder, I think it’s incredible resource also. So all those things are gifts that people should give themselves. You know, maybe it’s going to cost you 20$ I think you know better than therapy, at least for a star I.

 

Danny Gavin    27:41 

Think it’s a good point about like some of these tests pigeonholing people and saying, yeah, you’re going to be, you know, a engineer or you should be a doctor. I think that could be dangerous, but I love how when you have an advisor, a mentor, a coach who can help you like break that down and see like what are those traits and you know, those things could apply to many different jobs. I love that because I remember taking my personally Mali test when I was doing my MB A and it told me that I should go either into marketing or HR which I think was pretty accurate. But like to me it was like is HR really for me and like I really struggled with like, but what if I want to go to finance and?

 

Shaina Keren    28:18 

So it’s kind of just, yeah, I think it’s like we didn’t ask you, like you can give us information, don’t start making decisions for us on a computer like, I think that’s, I mean, maybe AI can do it now, but I think with these tests, people need to take them with a grain of salt. But use the information the information on its own is valuable and you just need to figure out how to incorporate into your life. So yeah, I mean, I got a, like a farmer and a nursing home administrator is mine. Like, i can hear that because I love nature. I don’t love animals but, you know, like, I can hear, you know, the management piece or the outdoorsy piece but then again, it’s like not taking so many other factors into account. And to me, the biggest thing is like, I think humans need to be. They’re the experts on themselves and I think they need to be given the information and then be trusted to make the right decision.

 

Danny Gavin    29:03 

So once someone figures out the general direction they want to take their career in. What would you recommend they do to first start building their professional brand?

 

Shaina Keren    29:11 

Like you say in your podcast, it’s all about mentorship. I mean it’s your network is your net net worth is true. I think that, you know, I would have never gotten to where I am without the people, many people who I’ve connected with and who opened up, you know, opportunities and doors along the way. And it’s really about the relationship so I think LinkedIn is a great place do that if you know people, you know, sometimes I have to give, like i give people the scripts of what to say even if you have a neighbor, you say you want to be a nurse and you have a neighbor who’s a nurse but like that’s so awkward like I’m the kid next door like i you know, I don’t talk to misses whatever, you know. But then giving them the scripts of, you know, calling people or texting someone, emailing you want to get formal, you know, depending on your agency, you know, But telling them exactly what to say and then they’re like, oh, okay, that’s easy but it feels like such an awkward thing and so I like to give people, you know, you can just go ahead and say hi i’m people also are afraid kind of myself off there that once they once they ask someone they’re sort of like then it’s embarrassing if they don’t go into it. And like there’s so many emotions there. So I’d like to say, even if you’ve made a decision just to tell people I’m exploring this career, it was recommended to me and I’m speaking to a couple people to learn more about what it’s like. I’m wondering if you could ask a couple questions, answer a couple questions for me, and I don’t think anybody you know gives a no.

 

Danny Gavin    30:30 

Yeah, and I love the fact that you’re giving people the scripts because I I’m like, looking at myself now i feel like sometimes I give people advice, you know, hey, just do this and that, but you don’t you know, in your mind, it’s really easy to accomplish that thing. But to them, it’s like, OK, but how do I actually do it? How do I get out of myself and the fact that you’re giving people those scripts and that kind of path of how to do it and what to expect, it just makes it a heck of a lot easier for them.

 

Shaina Keren    30:53 

And that’s something that I learned from a mentor of mine who I’ve never met, Ramit Sethi. So he does this in his emails and I used to think it was ridiculous, like, come on, people don’t know how to talk on the phone. And then he put together a script that I found useful. And I was like, you know, he gave a script, I believe it was years ago in an email where he was talking about how to introduce two people to each other, you know, and how to, you know, sort of what, like the psychology behind, well, if you complement each of them to each other, then you’re raising their perceived value, your perceived value, like it’s doing good all around then he had a script for that. And then I realized, like, oh, OK, I wouldn’t have thought of doing that. I’m making the introduction that way and I’ve tried it a couple of times with amazing results. And then I just realized, well, yeah, if you know, to some people expressing themselves, you know, in reading or writing, you know, speaking comes naturally and to other people, you know, they have the feelings, but they would never have figured out the words to that and so it’s so easy to give someone a script. How to how to get a raise, how to tell someone that you’re leaving a job. You know, how to tell someone that you’re uncomfortable with some of your responsibilities and people are so afraid of having these conversations and so yeah, I think that giving following scripts is really helpful.

 

Danny Gavin    32:03 

So I’m going to do a little sidebar if you haven’t noticed, Shane is very pro people asking for raises. So I always wonder that when Shana posts about like, hey, you should, you know, her content about asking for raise, like how many people out there in the, you know, interwebs, like freak out, like Oh my gosh, like how many people are going to come and ask for raise today?

 

Shaina Keren    32:22 

I always like, imagine like how you like, rock the world out there kind of funny, but you know what’s happened? I got one of my favorite responses to a post about people should ask for a raise was from an employer who said, and I was scared because of course they’re like, why are you making me crazy? And everybody’s asking me for money, but I’m very specific, and when I tell people to ask for money only when they truly deserve it, I’m being underpaid, which this example will demonstrate. So he says to me, I have an employee who is incredible. She’s been with us the last seven years. She’s never once asked for a raise. I know that if she would go next door tomorrow she would get twenty thousand dollars more, but just figure why should I? Why should I bother offering it? But after I saw your post, I realized that I was not being so nice. And I went over to the woman and I told her that she deserved a twenty thousand dollar salary increase. And so thank you. So like that and I’m just like wow, this woman will never know, you know will never meet. And I’m so happy that I made her life better in that way but it’s honestly, I’ve had people call me up and say I want to raise and I tell them that you know after getting information you don’t deserve a raise you’re going to have to do something more or switch companies sometime. But you know when I speak to the employees and the employers, they both usually agree. So just a bit of a problem i think that women just don’t speak up a lot they’re really uncomfortable to have these conversations. And so it’s, I don’t blame the bosses, they’re doing their job, keeping money in their pocket and that’s fine. But it’s as soon as you come and ask. So you know, i don’t think that the bosses are, you know, employers are doing any anything wrong but I also think that they’re actually really happy if somebody comes and is able to demonstrate their value and provide more value, it’s always a win Win.

 

Danny Gavin    34:07 

So are there any common missteps to personal branding that you see?

 

Shaina Keren    34:12 

Well, let’s start with the resume. You know the resume, and that could be followed by LinkedIn profiles, which shouldn’t be another version of your resume. But I think that it’s so strange to me how many people think that the resume is supposed to be a full on history of every burger you’ve ever served in your life, right? Like it’s we don’t care and it’s not relevant it’s not useful. And I think the one thing that you know, I’m curious what you’ll hear, what you’ll you would say from a marketing perspective. But I always tell people your resume is an advertisement, right and advertising doesn’t include everything the company does it includes only the thing that we think that the person might buy wants to hear and you are the thing available for purchase now and So what do you want to tell them about yourself? And if it doesn’t fit into that, then it has too much information.

 

Danny Gavin    35:02 

Yeah you know, when I was in grad school 12 years ago, they were so picky about making a resume one page. And it was so hard because it’s like, oh, I’ve got this and this and this, but it’s exactly like you said it is an advertisement and also just like we’ve got personas and target markets, really you need to edit your resume each time you send it out because you have to target exactly to that position that you’re looking for. So for some people that’s hard and it’s you know a lot of work and it’s annoying. But honestly you know if you do that, it just raises that resume to the top of the pack like I remember looking at a resume and someone got a Google certification you know that’s not the be all and end all but it automatically you know grab my eyes like okay we’re going to look at this person because of I see that there’s already some sort of desire there to get into digital marketing. So you have to look at that at every point of the resume. And tailor it specifically to the target market and that’s why I like the intro all those different points. You have to tailor it to the position that you’re looking for.

 

Shaina Keren    36:03 

Yeah, it’s like getting dressed for an occasion like you don’t have the same outfit for weddings and funerals, right like, you know, every hopefully right but every, like every time every employee presents, every job you know, approach, it’s a different occasion there’s something different going on. You want to be showing up with a different part of yourself you’re not lying. You’re sharing the relevant details without over sharing all the unnecessary information and it’s not very hard with using a I I’ve been using it. You know I think I did a post on LinkedIn you answered me and then you know so we should have a discussion about it but I’ve been using it in the meantime and I’d love to hear what you have to add about this but I just thought people will drop your resume you know the content of your resume into chat g p t and say make it fit this job description. Drop in the job description and bingo takes about a minute and it makes the necessary changes for you. So I’m curious if you have any additions that you would recommend for using it for job related purposes.

 

Danny Gavin    36:57 

Ooh, I mean, I’ve done the same thing for, I’ll say, a family member i don’t want to reveal who it is but yeah, he like, he had a resume and I said, hey, you really have to beef up like this area and show how it’s connected. And yeah, I dropped into chatty poutine was very helpful to do it like. So he was scared a little bit like ooh but you know, the filters are going to pick up that it’s you know and I think that for a resume i really don’t think that that’s an issue. Obviously you need to be honest and truthful, But you know, I think one of the beautiful things about AI is not so much of like asking it a question and letting it ull U from thin air, but it’s about. You know, the example that I give is, you know the painting of Mona Lisa and you cut out the middle of it and then a I was able to figure out and fill in that hole, which is pretty cool. Google Analytics now is doing the same thing where you know, certain data points we’re not going to be able to track so we’re only going to get 80 % of the picture. But they’re able to use the signals to figure out the rest and it’s the same thing. Like sometimes it’s hard for us. We have this picture, we have this resume, we have this website and we know that it’s missing certain parts, but it’s a little bit hard to know how to fill it in. And a I can help us do that and I think it’s a wonderful, you know, use case of how A I can be extremely helpful. And like you said, like if you’re going to apply to 10 different jobs, it takes some time to go in and tailor that. But if you can use a I to bring down the amount of time it’s going to take and just increase the value of what you’re offering to people i mean, it’s a nobrainer you’ve discussed before about changing your own career. You know, midlife. How do you respond to someone with little work experience in their desired field? But it’s past the age where traditional education is practical.

 

Shaina Keren    38:35 

And similarly, how do they get the knowledge and training they need to get their foot in the door when people pick up the phone on a call and they start with I don’t want to go to college, Are you still able to help me? And I’m just like, hold on, back up a minute. Like, why don’t we first look at you and figure out what you’re good at and what you’re interested in, you know, and work it the other way around. And then see where you want to go, and then see what the path is, if there’s a certificate path there, if there’s a college path there and I do work with a lot of people who already have families that they’re responsible for you know, supporting and they can’t just, they don’t just have luxury of going back to school sometimes it’s doable and when we. I find that when we break it down to okay well here’s going to be your options and I think I’m good at just laying it down for people in black and white well you can do this and then your life will look like that or you can do that and then life will look like this And then you go home and think about it for a week And then they realize well you know maybe I could figure it out. Right if school is the only way to get there and that’s a life long dream dream you know I’m big into well, when you’re 65 or whatever age you know, you’ll be looking back. Will you be comfortable with this decision. Right thinking about better that way nowadays, I think you know, more recently in the last five, five years there are way more certificates that you can take i mean your Odeo Academy is a perfect example of, you know, before that was around, I think people have to go to college for a degree to become a digital marketer. And now in 15 weeks, you know, they can go and do it and I’ve seen people gone through go through your course successfully and so I think there are way more opportunities than there used to be for certificate programs but I think that’s also the wrong question that people are asking, you know, do I need to go to college it’s like, well, if you want to become. I’m a doctor or a lawyer you do need to go to college. Then there’s the Gray area, you know the marketing and software and you know a whole bunch of other areas where you know some people find a college degree is better and other people will say that they actually prefer to have a degree in psychology or related subject and then add to certificates and internships and experience. And so I think there’s, you know, it’s more about starting with yourself than starting with what you know, what the outside world says and figuring out what’s going to work for your particular trajectory.

 

Danny Gavin    40:43 

Are there any pessimistic habits you’re trying to coach out of people for example, like in my generation we were taught, or Mark, in our generation we’re taught to clean your plate right when you’re eating, make sure you clean your plate. But we know that that’s not necessarily the healthiest approach to nutrition. Are there different traits like that you’re trying to get people to unlearn?

 

Shaina Keren    41:01 

Oh yeah the first one that comes to mind is people thinking that they must stay at a job, like for 20 years. And it’s definitely the older people and the younger people are like, do you think six months is enough to put on my resume before I move on? So I think with the older generation, it’s really scary when they Max out of a place to recognize. And sometimes I’m the one who has to just say, like, you can stay here, but you hit your Max and there’s nothing else you can do. And that doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with you or there’s anything wrong with the place you’re working for. You simply Max out of each other the relationship, you know, is getting stale and it’s time to move on. That’s a big one that I have to. I think it’s hard and, you know, sometimes people just have to spend an extra few months or years until they recognize it on their own but yeah, if I could give one message, it’s like it’s okay to Max out of a work relationship.

 

Danny Gavin    41:54 

On the other hand, I know with my agency, you know, I’m trying my best to make my people life, you know, to be with me for life.

 

Shaina Keren    42:01 

So if the owner has the is growing as fast as you can grow your career, you can stay forever. Exactly not every business is as you know, growth oriented as yours is, I would say.

 

Danny Gavin    42:14 

And it’s and it’s being in touch with what people want and you know, what are they looking to do and accomplish. So you have to be, you know, instead of just preaching your own, you know, plan, you have to hear everyone else’s plans and see if you can mesh those two together. And then I think you can do a good job of retaining people for the long haul yeah i mean I’m curious to see because like I think the people who are in their forties, who are business owners nowadays are right in between where they understand like the sort of the benefits of, you know, the senior generation of, you know, sticking with something and the seriousness. But then also, you know, like I’ve heard you say, you know, I know that you accommodate you know family leave and you know just different workplace needs and just, you know individual. You know, I think you had an example on a podcast about you know someone wanting to go to therapy and accommodating like those are normal needs nowadays. I’m curious like if I hope we’re going to be able to keep it up, you know, as we go on and that’s the benefit of the younger generation that we won’t be like how do we avoid becoming the older cranking generation who’s just complaining about everybody’s needs and isn’t ready to move forward because those are the businesses that people leave?

 

Danny Gavin    43:18 

Yeah and that’s why I think that you have the 6078 year olds who have been able to apply you know what’s current. And therefore I think that even us you know late thirties, forties i think even as we grow, as long as we’re staying in tune with our people, you know whether that’s you know just talking directly to your employees once a week or you know having those advisors to help you figure out what’s going on. I think that. You know, naturally there’s going to be like that defensive, like, no but we have to keep our ears open and that way even as we get older, we can still incorporate what, you know, the current mainstream tactics for, you know, at A at a workplace are.

 

Shaina Keren    43:57 

Yeah and I think like you’re saying, the more if we can look at the younger people and see their strengths, then they’re less protective against, you know, like don’t tell me what to do and then they’re able to see the strength of the older generation so it’s always comes back to that you know we’re appreciating respecting each other for what you have to offer.

 

Danny Gavin    44:15 

So as a lot of your work is within the Jewish community, I’m sure you can appreciate certain cultural and familiar pressures to a given career type of path for many. You know, like many children of parents who struggled pressuring them to become a doctor. How do you help people navigate those relational pressures and desires to please their loved ones relative to a person’s unique strengths?

 

Shaina Keren    44:36 

Yeah, I love when I get the chance to do that usually it’s more like 10 years later when, you know, I became a lawyer because that’s what my dad wanted. And now how do I get out of this? And so I see enough of that to be really comfortable when I see a young person about to make a really bad decision to just show them examples of people who I am working with and, you know, paint the picture for them of what that life is really like. And, you know, I careful not to make decisions for people, but I try to give them the information that I think they don’t realize. And many careers, I think people are just not aware of what the work is really like. And you know, they think that lawyers is all about what you see in movies, right and they think that, you know, they only see the fun parts of people’s days you only see, you know, the TV anchor right when they’re on screen. You don’t see all the hours of preparation beforehand. And so i try to give them that information and that makes it a lot easier for them to go back to their parents and find a mutually beneficial, you know, if they’re someone from that kind of culture and family where their parents opinion is very important. I find that if they come informed then you know their parents are very open to it parents really just want to know that you are going to be secure, something that you have like taken care of like I had a mother daughter who, and the daughter was interested in being a writer. And the mother was like, come on, that’s a joke. Nobody makes money from being a writer and then I showed her somebody who, you know, we both know and I said, you know, she makes twenty thousand dollars a month, Is that enough for you? She was like, so like, it’s just a matter of having conversations and i love when teens bring their parents into meetings and then we can have this conversation together and it’s amazing to watch what happens when you just give the parents the information.

 

Danny Gavin    46:21 

Yeah, that is cool. And it’s nice that you provide that opportunity where parents can join in on the meeting.

 

Shaina Keren    46:27 

Yeah, it’s preferable because otherwise they’re going to go home and have the fight about it.

 

Danny Gavin    46:31 

So yeah, it’s similar to work, right i know that often I like to have sometimes bigger meetings because that it’s like broken telephone that I have to tell someone else what happened. Nice to have all the, you know, all the stakeholders who actually are going to be a part of the decision should be in the same room exactly hash it out. So I don’t like change and I’ve really worked my whole life to you know, to get used to change and knowing that it’s okay. But in general, it can be scary for a lot of people and a lot of people have this aversion. So how should someone approach a big career or directional change if they know the change is necessary, But it’s terrifying for them?

 

Shaina Keren    47:07 

Yeah, it’s really hard. People don’t call me until they’ve been in pain for a while. So I think that the scariest thing is to be like comfortably uncomfortable because those people just live a passive life of unhappiness and don’t really have anything pushing them. So i think that family is a big reason that people make a move you know, their spouse has been badgering them or their kids or their parents. I’m working with a bunch of people now who they’re watching their kids go and have career success and they’re like, why am I still in this thumb job for the last 25 years? So it takes something to happen and I don’t usually get to be part of that process. By the time somebody books The call with me, they are so ready that it’s there’s not really a lot to work through.

 

Danny Gavin    47:55 

So it seems like there’s room for content and speaking about that. And I’m not telling you what to talk about, but definitely there’s room to let people know that it’s OK. And that you should think about it because we know that there are people who are stuck, but they’re too scared.

 

Shaina Keren    48:07 

Yeah, that’s what I try to use my LinkedIn, you know, networking for and posting because I think that it’s like, you know, giving people little tidbits and hearing little things And then eventually they say, you know, I keep hearing this lady say this, like, is that true or so many other people able to be happy and I’m just sitting here so I think that’s an easy way to bring awareness and you’re right, Absolutely more can be done there.

 

Danny Gavin    48:30 

Yeah, and but you definitely are doing a lot, so it’s amazing. So it’s time now for our lightning round. Shane is a big reader. And so Shana, we’d love to know your top three business or psychology books.

 

Shaina Keren    48:45 

Yeah, I have so many. It’s hard to take only three, but I A big one for me is the choice. By Doctor Edith Eva Eager, I think is how you pronounce your name, or that’s the right name. But to me, I think it’s fascinating because as much as it’s a Holocaust story, it’s a personal life story. It’s about her career, it’s about her personal growth. And I think that it exemplifies like how personal growth and career growth and everything else is really intertwined so you know, the more a person like she had to navigate, you know, her challenges and her relationships and her marriage and all of that to become who she was professionally. And so I know that thought the point of her book, but to me there’s a lot of lessons and that’s a big one. I’m seeing how you need to put those. You know, you need to constantly be moving as a person to be moving in your career and that’s just going to go together. Another one is 1 that I mentioned the Pathfinder, it was it was really life changing you know, I think it’s very that you pick up a book and then you can point to that book as you know that reading this book completely changed my life trajectory and so that’s a big one for me, not easy reading it’s more like a textbook workbook. So I don’t know that I would recommend it, but it’s definitely, if you’re confused, you know about your career trying to figure out how does this thing work and you are, you know, want to sit down and read a book that’s that would be one. And then I also mentioned for me Sadie before, but he was one of the first people who I came across his website and who’s talking about money and how you don’t need to, you know, live the same way that your parents live and that you know, you can open a business and he’s talking about side households and that definitely his book, was one of the things that, you know, sparked me, being able to, you know, confidently go out of my own and try something new.

 

Danny Gavin    50:26 

Those are awesome recommendations, and we’ll put the links to them below so Shana, as we wrap up. What are you currently working on what’s your next big project?

 

Shaina Keren    50:35 

Well, I’ve been more recently in the last year and sort of the coming year a big goal is to train more coaches. I think there are a ton of life coaches. I don’t know that there are a ton of career coaches who are trained to use aptitude testing to work with individuals and you know each coach can only work with so many clients and so, you know, i still take on clients, but I’m at a point where I want to train more people to be able to service their communities specifically in different industries. And so that’s project. I think that there are so many like so many industries that you can focus on and so many people from different backgrounds that you know, like I work with the firm community and there’s such specifics that working with the coach outside of the community will just be so much more complex and I think every community can use people like that.

 

Danny Gavin    51:18 

So where can listeners learn more about you and your business?

 

Shaina Keren    51:21 

Thank you. It’s just Shainakaren.com SHAINA at KEREN That is the last name. Get in touch schedule a call. Learn more about me or LinkedIn. Feel free to send a message connect. I’d love to hear from people or try to refine every message.

 

Danny Gavin    51:35 

Super well, Shaina, this has been an absolute pleasure thank you for spending time today to share all your wonderful insights. And thank you listeners for tuning into the Digital Marketing Mentor we’ll speak with you next time.