080: Curiosity, Community, & Confidence: Ameet’s Journey to PPC Leadership 

Danny Gavin Host

00:05

Hello, I’m Danny Gavin, founder of Optage marketing professor and the host of the Digital Marketing Mentor. Now get ready to get human. Is the founder and owner of Hopskip Media. She’s a former Google Partners ambassador and rising star. Amit has spoken at many top digital marketing conferences, including Hero Conference and Brighton. She also regularly contributes to Search Engine Journal and has been nominated several times as one of the most influential PPC professionals. Today, we’re going to talk about paid search, ai and paid search agency leadership and, of course, mentorship. How are you doing, amit? 

Ameet Khabra Guest

01:04

I am fantastic. How are you? 

Danny Gavin Host

01:06

Good I’m doing. Well. It’s always fun to speak with people who are about the same timeline as me, so, like I’ve started professionally in around 2010,. Similar to you, we both run agencies, so it’s kind of. It’s always nice to speak to real peers, so I’m so glad you’re here, I know. Then you’re just like well, how do you do this? And then like but, as we know, in our industry there’s a lot more friends than foes, you know. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

01:30

Definitely true, definitely. I don’t think I’ve ever walked into or not walked into, but walked up to a PPCer and asked a question and then turned around and was like I’m not answering that, like I think we’ve got a really great community it, I think we’ve got a really great community it is. Yeah, it’s quite amazing. I love it. 

Danny Gavin Host

01:44

All right, so let’s jump in. Where did you go to school and what did you study? 

Ameet Khabra Guest

01:47

It’s called Kwatlin Polytechnic University. It was technically a community college before I got there and then they upgraded to Polytechnic, which I have no idea what that means. I never bothered finding out because I was like who really cares? Originally I was in school for business administration with a minor in entrepreneurial leadership and I took one macro class and when this is not for me, I don’t want to do this. Then I tried microeconomics and it still made no sense. So eventually I took all my credits and was like marketing, this is where most of my credits go. 

02:20

And that’s kind of basically the origin story of how I ended up here. Three-hour class in computer sciences where he was going over email marketing content, google Ads, analytics and for whatever reason and I think it was certification-related because they had the Google Ads and analytics certifications. I think I wrote that down because of that reason. And then, like a year and a half, maybe two years later, I opened the book up and went, oh, I should probably try doing this, hey, and then that was the end of it. Then eventually I started actually working for other agents or not other agencies. I started working at a car dealership. Basically, they owned and sold car dealerships in a sense, and then I ended up in an agency and then started my own somehow. So all of it actually stems from my origin. The story of how I got here also stems from school. 

Danny Gavin Host

03:07

That’s amazing, and I also know you have an audio engineering and production diploma from the Pacific Audiovisual Institute. You want to tell me about that. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

03:16

For a quick second. I thought I could be the next Skrillex. I was obsessed with EDM at that point and then, for whatever reason, I was like you know what, let’s try this out. Like I’ve always loved music, I don’t really have a natural talent. Unfortunately, my dad is very like I think he’s a very gifted singer, so I think I get the musical love from him, but I did not get the talent, unfortunately. So I was like let’s try this. And that was right after I finished the marketing diploma or certificate or whatever. 

Danny Gavin Host

03:47

I had done it. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

03:48

And I remember when I walked into class everybody was just like who is this person? Why is she here? And then they all got to the last semester and realized that business was a big thing and they were like, oh, and I’m like, yeah, I had. I’m like I saw that I had a vision. Y’all didn’t see it. And I’m like I’m like I saw that I had a vision. Y’all didn’t see it. And I’m like now you’re paying ketchup and I don’t have to, and I’m like we’re cool. 

04:07

So it was interesting. It was just kind of one of those things where I was like I kind of want to try it and I went for it and I actually ended up doing some work in sound design instead, because I’m very like a regimented person, like I love accuracy and everything. So being able to do sound effects and have it teed up to someone kicking rocks it just fed that side of me that needs that precision so well. So I excelled in that role. But in terms of the musical producing side of things, I was more of someone who organized it versus being the person who was actually like maybe we should try that take again, because I did not hear what was wrong with it. 

Danny Gavin Host

04:47

But I love how adventurous you were, trying different things out and seeing what works for you. That’s really really awesome. So when you look at your experiences both inside and outside the classroom around those times right when you were at those two universities or colleges and any other experiences that you look back and be like ooh, that kind of paved my way to how I do things today. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

05:06

I think it’s just naturally how I’ve always kind of been very inquisitive, asking a lot of questions. So when I was in school, I was the dorky one who stayed back after class just to talk to the professor, the instructor, whoever it was, asked some random questions that made no sense for me to ask. And then years later I was like, oh yeah, Kim told me that, or yeah, Danny told me that, or yeah, that guy told me that. And I’m like, oh interesting, it was just like this weird way that I was building these blocks without realizing it. Yeah, so I think for me it was more or less of just being that person who constantly was just asking those random questions. 

Danny Gavin Host

05:41

You know it’s so cool. You’re not the first person like a successful digital marketer who’s told me like they were the one who stayed back and asked the professor questions. I’ve actually hired I mean, I don’t know if you know, but I’m a professor also, so I’ve actually hired students because of that, like they’re actually coming up and asking those additional questions, like they’re just the ones who you know stand out a little bit more and care a little bit more and that could make a huge difference. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

06:04

It really does, especially if they’re saying hey, I know your time is valuable, I just want to ask you these really specific questions and stuff like that. I think that really has the mark of someone who has thought about it and that’s how I’ve always operated. So when I started in the community, it was still on Google Streams. I don’t know if everybody remembers Google Streams from back in the day. Oh, it was like, yeah, Google’s version of trying to compete with meta, but it just never did. But they had the Google Partner community on there and that’s how I just randomly somehow found it one day and I would just sit there and I would post questions and be like okay, so I tried this, this, this and this. None of it worked. 

06:40

What’s the answer? And I think the reason why people were so quick to help me was because they’re like you’ve tried, you’ve attempted, you just unfortunately were not successful. Therefore, I’m going to help you, right? Because, like we want to help people who have tried, we don’t want to help people who have given up. So I think that was kind of like the difference where I was able to get like that early buy-in, because I was just so motivated to find the answer and was just looking for somebody to help me find the answer versus giving it to me. 

Danny Gavin Host

07:08

So, Amit, how would you define a mentor? 

Ameet Khabra Guest

07:10

For me. I think mentorship is more or less of just having somebody there when I need those questions to kind of gently guide me, kind of like a therapist in a sense. I don’t want somebody to tell me what to do. I want them to maybe look back at what they’ve done and then kind of I don’t know if this is like the analyst in me, but I just want somebody to trigger thoughts. Like I can see things from 5, 20 different angles in a split second. But sometimes I don’t know where to start and I think having a mentor for me has always been really valuable in getting someone to help me start thinking about it. I don’t necessarily need them to get me to the finish line, I just need them to get me to start. If they can help me to the finish line, of course I would love it, but I think it’s more or less for me it’s the start of it. How do I find someone to help me think differently? 

Danny Gavin Host

07:51

So let’s talk about some of your most influential mentors. Let’s start with your first mentor, Julie Friedman. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

08:06

So, yeah, we met when it was still Twitter. I’m still going to be calling it Twitter because I don’t care. 

Danny Gavin Host

08:07

I don’t care enough to call it the other name as long as you don’t call it Google AdWords, then I’m okay with you calling it Twitter, so we’re fine. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

08:14

I mean, I’m still the AdWords girl online. 

Danny Gavin Host

08:16

I know, I know, whoops, I got to be careful. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

08:21

I love that one. I always open all of my presentations like I’m aware it’s called Google Ads. I still like the name a lot, so we’re keeping it. Guys, just do it. But yeah, it was back on Twitter many, many years ago. 

08:35

PPC chat was just another place where I was just trying to find more community, especially when the Google partners community kind of moved on to something called lithiumium and it just wasn’t. I just didn’t like it. It just didn’t work for me. So I was basically just looking for a new place to talk about ads, actually basically just because in my local community I was kind of the only one who did ads at that time. So then it was just like me standing around, lone wolf, like who do I talk to? And at that point you’re just kind of going down and just being like, well, I I talk to, and at that point you’re just kind of going down and just being like, well, I can talk to myself, but that’s not as interesting, right? 

09:07

So I went and found PPC Chat and naturally Julie came with that package and I’m so glad that she did because she was just like I think for her it was the way that she kind of approached me was with so much kindness, and it’s not different than what I’ve experienced from this community, but it was just still different. 

09:25

I don’t know how to explain Julie unless you’ve spoken to her or met her in some way. 

09:29

She’s just got this really lovely touch to her that it just makes you feel like you’re in a very safe spot, that you’re with a very safe person. Almost kind of feels like home is what I like to kind of equate it to. And so I got to sit around talking to her for about random stuff, whether that be life or PPC stuff, and then eventually the pandemic hit, and that’s when my communication with her increased significantly, and that’s when my participation in PPC chat started to increase significantly as well, Cause I had felt like I’m like, okay, there’s this one person who literally runs the show and she’s making it evident that she somewhat believes in me, in whatever capacity. Somehow I’ve convinced her of that. Now I feel a little bit more confident to go and start talking to all these people who I feel are basically the real deal. I would say that, like she’s the reason why I’m in the position I am now, like the confidence that she gave me is the reason why I’m here. 

Danny Gavin Host

10:21

So kind of like, without having that person, you’re always like second guessing yourself. Do I really know what I’m talking about? Can I really go out there? But she basically kind of gave that stamp of approval, like yeah, you can do it. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

10:31

Yeah, and especially somebody who was highly regarded, Right. So that’s the other half of it. If it was anybody else off Twitter, I don’t know if I would care, would have cared as much. It was the person who was active. You know, the PPC chat is Julie, right, and, like everybody, just loves and adores her so much. And I saw that even online where I was just like okay, if this person has like some kind of inkling of like this, like I’m worth I mean it’s going to sound bad, but like I’m worthy of this conversation then I’m going to take it and not try to squander the opportunity that’s been given to me. 

Danny Gavin Host

11:02

Yeah, and I wasn’t trying to say like it’s just some random Twitter right, like no no, no, no no, no, I know, I was just saying like cause, yeah, you might think that yeah, like some Twitter person said it, no, like Julie is truly amazing and it’s amazing that you were able to connect that bond with her and have that bond continue to today. Let’s move on to your current director. I believe you pronounce his name Idris Fashan. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

11:22

Yeah, I think that’s exactly how you would say it. I say Idris like the Anglo way, but like I’ve heard him say it that way before. 

Danny Gavin Host

11:30

So I guess it’s my Hebrew language. What can I say? Tell me, why has he been a mentor to you? 

Ameet Khabra Guest

11:37

I think our meeting or story or like our origin story is kind of the cutest thing on the planet. Both agencies, I think he got hired maybe like a month after me, two weeks, like a very, very short time period, and at that time we were all in our own little cubbies. So I was sitting here, he was sitting right behind me, like he just got placed there. So every morning I just turn around and obviously I am who I am and I’d be like hello, what are you doing? And then I would have liked these snacks like goldfishes and he hated them when we first met and I used to like shove them down his throat. Until now he has like three, four bags in his house, like he always has because of me. 

12:16

But like just turning around having those conversations every morning with somebody who wasn’t stuck in a cubby was really like how everything kind of started. He’s content or comes from a content background and then eventually moved off and started doing all of these other things. But I think his mentorship really started happening when I left the agency where he and I I don’t know what kind of continued us to keep in contact, but something did we would meet for coffee and I’d tell him what I was up to and then he’d be like okay, well, your brand needs like an actual identity, like your brand needs this, your brand needs that. And then we would sit in coffee shops doing these random little things. And I remember at one point it’s just kind of funny to see it almost kind of come true now where I sat there and I was like I want us to be a content house that just happens to do PPC. That was always kind of the mission. 

13:06

And then, obviously, being by yourself, there’s only so much you can do. And then, when you’re floundering a little bit, there’s only so much you can do. And now we’re kind of in this cool position where we’re almost kind of starting to move towards that. And now I get to look back at him and be like this is what we were working at, like this was what we were talking about seven years ago. It’s finally happening. So it was just really cool to have somebody like him, who obviously always had my best interests at heart, but always kind of came in and was like okay, let’s just try to. You did this, let’s just do a little bit of an iteration. He always kind of pushed me. I like people when they push me, and he always did that, so for me he’ll always kind of have a special spot in my heart. But I mean, he’s part of my company too, which is kind of a testament to how great I think he is. 

Danny Gavin Host

13:48

Yeah, and it’s special to have those people around you who aren’t afraid to push back, because that’s really what you want and need. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

13:53

Yeah, I think a lot of people seem to think that mentorship is like just somebody giving you advice, and I don’t believe that to be true in any way, shape or form. It’s someone who’s pushing you. I want someone who’s pushing you. I want someone who’s going to continually tell me that I need to not necessarily do better, but like. Their expectation of me is slightly above what I’m giving them right now. 

Danny Gavin Host

14:11

So you gave me the most wonderful gift recently, which was a comic book. Was that your idea, or was that Idris’s idea? 

Ameet Khabra Guest

14:17

No, it was mine. All of the random stuff that comes out of our shop, it’s all me. I love doing random things. I love doing random things, it’s just. It fuels me. I think it fuels my creativity in a way that just doesn’t feel forced. I don’t feel like I’m a creative person but when I get an idea and it seems really, really cool and viable to me, I hold onto it. 

14:39

So the comic book was something that I actually thought of. I want to say, like five years ago, that it took us like that long just to get there and it was just a matter of just having the right team in place. And then I finally saw the assets sitting there and I was like, oh my God, I could use you guys now. And like our graphic designer just ran with it. She had the best time ever doing it and just watching her take that leadership position was like okay, now I feel more confident for you in the future. So it was like a nice little way for me to kind of test out my team for leadership stuff, which was, yeah, really cool. I loved that comment book. I’m so happy to hear that you enjoyed it. 

Danny Gavin Host

15:11

Yeah, totally. So let’s talk about Brian Smith of Blue Train, and some would say that you would credit him for your whole career. That’s a big statement, so we’d love to know what’s special about Brian. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

15:23

So Brian is the owner of Blue Train Marketing. I think it might be the end. It’s the Blue Train. So they’re also I mean, in technicality they’re a competitor, but they do. They’re kind of full service. 

15:35

Brian is somebody that I met, I want to say in oh geez, 2013? Something like that, like long enough that I’ve forgotten. I’d finished my Google Ads certification and the analytics as well, and I started looking for jobs and obviously Google Ads was the natural progression. So I applied for a position as an account manager because I was like I just needed to. At that point I had no idea what I was doing, I just needed a job. That was literally the only end game. 

16:06

I remember that day so vividly. I remember what I wore, I remember everything. It’s so weird. I get to the office and we’re doing the interview and I’m telling him what I’m really really interested in and all that stuff. He shows me the office and then I’m off on my way and then I get a call from him later that night and he goes to Amit, I’ve been thinking about it and he’s like I don’t think you’re an account manager. And I go okay, and he makes you sound like an analyst. And he’s like really, at this point. We’re looking for an account manager. I might have an analyst position open for you. Let me see if I can create the work. 

16:38

And unfortunately at that time he just wasn’t able to create that work for me. But that little sentence right there was like oh, I get it now. I’m not supposed to be applying for these jobs where I’m taking care of the client, I’m supposed to be the one who’s working behind the scenes. And that really kind of shaped everything in that sense where I was like, oh okay, now I need to make this iteration and go down this PPC route. And that’s exactly what I did. So, yeah, I think Brian Smith is the person to credit for at least, I would say at least 80% of how I ended up here. Frankly, because if he hadn’t said you’re an analyst, I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know if I would have ended up here. I think I might have continued trying to be like an account manager, because that required less experience at that time. 

Danny Gavin Host

17:20

Wow, and if you think about it, because you and I we both interview people, and how often do we think about, obviously, for an interview, we’re trying to figure out like okay, is this person going to work or not? But like sometimes, just being honest and because sometimes it’s scary to be honest in an interview like maybe be better this way or that, like that changed your whole trajectory. It just shows you how powerful that interaction is and maybe I’m talking to myself, you’re not you but like we can take more responsibility of like, oh my gosh, we’ve got to be careful when we do these interviews because it could really change someone’s life to the good or to the bad. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

17:49

Yeah, and actually in regards to even that. So I’m very active on Instagram or I was, I should say, at one point where I was constantly doing stories and I mean we still create content on Instagram. It’s just that my attention has been split now. But I remember at one point I used to talk to so many of my followers because I had done more stories and there was this one person who was also doing Google ads and we’d talk about ads all the time and I’d tell her what I was up to and all this great stuff, and then all of a sudden, I didn’t hear from her for maybe about, I want to say like four to six months or something long enough that I had noticed that she was kind of gone. And then I went back to try to find her and her account wasn’t anywhere and I was like, hmm, I wonder what happened. 

18:29

So randomly, I opened up my phone and there’s a message from like a new account on Instagram or whatever and I open it up and it’s that person and the message basically read I switched careers and meet, and then literally it was just I saw how much passion and how much love you had for PPC and I realized that I didn’t match it anywhere close to that and that must mean something. 

18:52

So she’s like I’m content now and I’m significantly happier, and that story stays with me for years and years and years and I was like, ah, that was my good thing that I did. That was the one good thing that I did with my career was the fact that I helped somebody see that maybe it wasn’t for them as much as I want people to. I mean, my whole platform is trying to encourage people to kind of start doing their ads themselves or for clients or whatever. But it was just yeah, it was just really. It was a really cool moment for me where I was just like, oh, like I did that, like it was a really cool moment for me where I was just like, oh, like I did that, like that was really cool, like I yeah, I don’t know, it was really cool, I did that. 

Danny Gavin Host

19:24

Yeah, I like to say that we get more when we give right. So when you can actually see that I’ve actually been able to give and create opportunities for other people, there’s nothing greater than that. So you were blessed to have that. Just to know about it, right, because it could have just gone on and you had no clue, right, just like oh, she just disappeared. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

19:44

And that’s what I thought I was just like. Oh, she just went off into her own freelancing career bubble, whatever else you want to call it, and, yeah, when she came back, it was yeah, it was really truly a great gift that she was able to give me. 

Danny Gavin Host

19:55

So now switching the tables, being the mentor. So I know you’re not actively mentoring anyone, but naturally you have your team, you have the content that you put out there. Do you want to talk a little bit about, like, how you interact with people and mentor them, even if it’s not officially? 

Ameet Khabra Guest

20:09

I think my interactions are like what I hope to come off as kind of like your good friend. I don’t want to say best friend because I feel like calling someone my best friend means something. So I want to be like that really good friend that you’re able to go to. I get messages a lot and I try to respond to them as much as I possibly can and more often than not people will be like, oh, I messaged like four other people and they never responded and I was like, at the very least, if I know I can help you, I’m going to try. And that’s just mainly because, like, I don’t know, because I was there, I was literally. I still put myself in those scenarios where I’m like I remember when I was completely clueless and I had no idea and this random person helped me figure this out, and that random person helped me figure that out, and the amount of clarity and the reduction in anxiety that it helped, even if it was like a one word sentence of like no, you’re doing it wrong. At least I knew. Then I can move off and try to find another solution. So I kind of just try to take that same approach where it’s just a nice, safe, easy place to come to ask your questions, however you want. But the feeling that I want you to walk out with is like, oh, I just had a friend, like my friend gave me some advice, versus like somebody that I don’t know. 

21:19

I think I put people on pedestals a lot and that’s just naturally because for me I want to gravitate towards that, like that’s the person I want to be. But I just hate it when people put me there. I don’t like it. It’s a really weird feeling. So then I just try to make it seem as safe and as like you’re just talking to your peers, you’re just talking to your friend, as much as I possibly can, just so that way they can ask questions without feeling that little bit of embarrassment that you do when you’re asking questions. So that’s kind of my approach is that I try to bring it down as much as I possibly can in a way that I’m hoping doesn’t make that person feel horrible at the end of it all. I mean, most people come back, so I’m assuming that I’m doing it correctly, but I don’t know for sure. 

Danny Gavin Host

22:01

So when dealing with your team, there’s obviously a fine line between micromanaging and then also course correcting. So how do you make sure that you do more of the latter and less of the former? 

Ameet Khabra Guest

22:12

I think realizing that you’ve hired adults is a big piece to it, and that’s something that I echo back to my team very, very often, where I was like my expectation is that you are an adult, you have your task, you have your job, you do it at the best of your capability within the hours that we have already laid out for you and that’s it. And I think that really really works well, because I don’t sit there and say, hey, you have to be online at 9 am every single day. Hey, you have to work a full 40 hours every single week, as long as you get your job done, I don’t care. So then that really helps with that pressure of feeling like they have to do quantity versus quality. So most of the work that comes out of our house is like I know this is going to sound a little cocky, but like really great work, because I give them that time. I literally bake in. Even when I’m doing like hour allotments for like accounts, I bake in that time. I literally bake in even when I’m doing like hour allotments for like accounts. I bake in that time where there’s like 10 hours of like who knows what’s going to happen this week and like a lot of agency owners that I’ve spoken to in the past are like that’s ridiculous. Like you’re just giving them 40 hours a week to do nothing and I’m like, yeah, in that 40 hours a week they’re probably going to do some reading, they’re going to probably sleep a little bit, they’re going to go hang out with their kid, maybe exercise, and I’m like they’re significantly happier. But when they come back on Monday, I’m like guess what happens? I get the best work out of them. They spot that error two days before anybody else would have Like those little things add up and I think that really really helps especially with the mentorship side of it is just making sure that I don’t have to micromanage them when you’ve given them the autonomy to do what they feel like is the best option. 

23:45

So like really giving them that the opportunity to make decisions without me having to be involved is a really big thing that we’re working on this year, where I feel like some people are still kind of in this phase of like let me ask a meet before I publish this or ask me before I do this, and I love that they care that much, but eventually at some point I’m going to have to sit there and be like you own this department. 

24:03

Now your decision whether we sink or swim on this, like part of it, has to be yours Cause, like there’s only so much that I can do as an owner after a certain point as well. So yeah, for me it’s really empowering them to make their decisions and then really really going back and telling them that I trust them, because that’s the other piece of it Like I can tell you that you’re more than welcome to make that decision, but if I’m not following it up with, like I trust your judgment, you’re going to constantly think about it. So I just for me, I just go back to how I wish I was treated as an employee at an agency and literally just do that. 

Danny Gavin Host

24:34

And naturally it also means that you’re okay when they make mistakes, right? Or and letting them know that like, hey, naturally, if I’m giving you this, it could mean that you’re going to make some mistakes, but you know what? That’s how you learn and that’s how you grow. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

24:45

Yeah, for me, a mistake is fine, as long as you learn from it. If it happens again and again, then we have a problem. That’s when we’re going to have a conversation. Meena Meeta is not somebody you want to be around. They haven’t seen her yet and I hope that they don’t have to. 

Danny Gavin Host

25:02

I think that’s going to be like the second version of your comic book when Meena Meet comes out, but in a good way, that’s a really good idea. To save the world. Right Not to fire anyone. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

25:15

I might have to steal that from you. 

Danny Gavin Host

25:17

You know what. It’s all good. Okay, let’s pivot to AI. So recently you did a study on human versus AI-generated ad copy and we’d love to talk about it. So what was the goal of the study? Tell me a little bit about it. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

25:32

So the goal of the study was more or less curiosity. Really, for me, especially when it comes to tests and stuff like that, I think what everybody will realize is that most of the stuff I end up doing is more for just answering my own random questions. So Google had, at that point, had just recently announced that Gen I was coming into Google Ads and I was like, hmm, I wonder if AI actually could perform better than humans. And then I sat there and kind of just started going down that rabbit hole and I was like at this point we have no way to definitively know. So I was like, okay, here’s $500. Let’s find out. 

26:08

Admittedly, the budget was super low, the timeline was super short. There’s a lot of caveats to this, but what the information gave us was actually pretty telling in the human sense. You can’t remove us from the content writing side of things quite yet. So in terms of results and stuff like that, I think we saw oh gosh, I have to remember this off the top of my head now in terms of clicks, ai had gotten 26, humans had gotten 65. Impressions were 713 compared to 1,036. Ctr difference was 3.65 compared to 4.85. And then the CPC, which was like the biggest difference. I think it was 605 to 485. In all accounts, humans kicked AI’s butt every single time, on every single metric, and what that kind of just told me was that one. Even the way that we wrote the ads may not be super duper different from what AI had done. 

27:06

What we’ve learned is that emotional context and just understanding how humans talk is not something that AI is quite able to figure out quite yet. Will it be, maybe I don’t know right. Like we’ve got moments of it everyone talking about how it’s going to become sentient and stuff like that. But then I’m like at that point, wouldn’t it know how to converse like that? Like, yeah, I can go down that rabbit hole pretty hard, but yeah, so the test basically just showed us that. But then I think, really where my mind started going even further was like, okay, well, what about algorithmic biases and the data privacy side of things and all of this other stuff with biases, like, if we’re putting in the wrong data, then naturally that’s going to perpetuate. 

27:42

And even Carnegie Mellon I think it was, I want to say 2016 discovered that with ads where, like, high paying ads were being disproportionately shown to Caucasian men versus women, and that was really jarring and I just sat there and I was like, okay, well, what else is there? Like, what else could be there? So I think there’s going to be another version of this test somewhere. I just haven’t quite figured out what exactly it is, but there’s something there. I know that there’s something there. 

28:08

So that’s going to be really, really interesting just to see it kind of evolve, because eventually, like I feel like the Gen I side of it it’s going to end up in like the AARs, and that’s when things are going to get really, really scary and I’m a little petrified for it. Somebody asked me to do a 2025 predictions list and I was like, what happens here? No one’s talking about it right now or at least I don’t feel like they are and I’m like my mind. The amount of anxiety that’s in my body just thinking about that, where the auto recommendations are just going to go out and they’re going to just publish out this content that was written by AI, based off of, like whatever the website said, even if it’s like, yeah, small business owners that don’t know how to exclude pages those kinds of things are just kind of what’s looming in my head when it comes to AI in the industry. But then also, how do we stay accountable? I, yeah, we could probably have a four hour conversation about this very easily, very easily, very easily. 

Danny Gavin Host

29:02

Related but not directly related. So I recently did a video for my academy just running through meta setting up a campaign, and it’s been a while since me personally, I’ve gone through a meta campaign and I know we’re talking about Google Ads, but the point is I can’t tell you how hard it was and how much work it was to actually opt out of all of the AI recommendations. So like automatic sound, automatic music, different filters I mean it’s insane. But if you think about it, your average person, right, they’re not going to know. They’re just like, oh, yeah, you know, click on advanced plus, click, click, click, click right, and then it’s just going to go and what it creates is a monster, like really. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

29:42

So yeah, I have that fear, just like you, where it’s just not there yet, but they’re pushing it so much and like, oh, and it’s just not good for the average user it’s not, and I just worry about the small business owner that doesn’t have an agency or a freelancer or someone looking out for them, or even like the owners that unfortunately work with those agencies that don’t care enough to check like those are the ones that I really, really worry about, because I’m like, when we’re talking about brand safety, there’s a lot of implications on that side of things. Who holds the liability? Like? I mean Google and Meta both are very great at absolving themselves from any kind of liability, right? So then at that point you’re kind of sitting there going, okay, well, now what? Like what do we do? And today’s ppc chat was about like, do we leave these platforms? But then how do we leave these platforms, especially if they’re returning for the customer but they’re not ethical? And then you’re just going down all of these other random rabbit holes and I’m like this is probably the most complex this industry has ever gotten. 

30:45

When I started, we were just kind of trying to argue about adding close variants. I remember the Larry Kim article that told us about close variants. It’s like it happened yesterday and I just sit there and I’m like that was my main concern 10 years ago. Was is exact match going to stay exact match, and now we have that answer. But now I’m sitting here looking at AI and I’m like, well, what’s the answer at the end of it? Because it only got worse for us. So is this going to follow suit, or do we see improvement? Yeah, I don’t know. I got doomsday. 

Danny Gavin Host

31:26

No, it’s true, and I think about it the same way, especially when there’s like a lot of commentary from people you know, for a lot of the sissas are livelihood, right. It’s not like that there’s an easy replacement for meta at Google, right. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

31:31

So it’s kind of like you know what are the options and it’s very easy to stand up and say oh, you know it’s evil, but I always wonder about the people who stand up and say that if they lost those two platforms today, would they be? Okay, it’s hard, it’s really hard. But even just adding the complexity of being an agency owner, I don’t know how big your team is, but I have eight other people working for me that rely on me to feed their families, pay their rent, all that stuff, and that’s not a responsibility that I take lightly. So then naturally, my mind goes into the pessimistic side of things, because I’m like, well, how do I prevent this from happening? Or how do I best protect ourselves? Yeah, right, because we’ve already gone through pretty horrible events that thankfully we’ve been able to survive. But, like as an owner who has constantly had to go to battle and war, I don’t know how much I have left in me as well, right, so then there’s like all of these random little plays in the mix of everything, and then it was something that I was talking to Julia about earlier today where I was just like I don’t know what to do anymore. Like before the outline was a little bit clearer. If this happens and we have to do this, if this happens, we have to do this. But I’m like now we have not to bring in politics but to bring in politics right. We have new leadership coming into the state. 

32:47

All of the moves that Meta has made over the last several weeks seems to be very much kissing the ring type of deal. I wonder how many other CEOs are going to follow. I wonder what those implications are going to be. What happens to TikTok? Is it going to be bought by Elon Musk, like some of the reports are saying, or are they actually going to just admit defeat and just walk out of the States and essentially Canada, which frankly, like for world affairs, I would prefer at this point, but, like from an advertising standpoint, there are so many DTC brands that rely on TikTok and I just sit there and I’m like and I can’t give you my opinion either way, because both sides of the implications are just not great. 

33:30

It’s almost like an election where you just have two parties and neither of the candidates are great options, so you’re picking the lesser of two evils, which feels like what voting is these days. It’s basically just turning into the ad industry. Where do we put our votes, where do we put our money? And that’s where I just like it. I don’t know what to do with that anymore, especially with clients who don’t quite understand those little tiny intricacies and maybe they don’t care and that’s totally fine. But like yeah, yeah. 

Danny Gavin Host

33:59

It’s a lot of Terrified, it’s a lot of subject. I have a close friend, a young guy who’s actually on the podcast and he runs a tiktok agency. Like that’s what he specializes in and like I’m even scared to ask him, like what are you gonna do? You know, and as much as he’s trying to branch out to other social platforms, but like he’s killing it on tiktok and it’s hard, like you know. So, yeah, that’s why you and I or other agency owners, especially in 2025, we’re like looking at like where are the holes? What do we get to do? And, like you said, we have that huge responsibility on our shoulders. I don’t know if everyone agrees with that. We’ve seen agencies last year who just sell the thing and then suddenly everyone’s out of a job. But there are people who do care and, yeah, we’ve got to protect ourselves and our people. So it’s definitely complex. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

34:51

Yeah, it’s not an easy one, unfortunately. I think it’s going to be multi-year before I’m able to form some kind of answer that’s a little bit more concrete. So maybe we do this in two years and see if I have an answer for you. 

Danny Gavin Host

35:04

I’m glad to do that. So, pivoting a little bit over to agency, on LinkedIn, you recently shared a story about keeping up appearances when going through tough times. Can you share your strategy on finding a balance between authenticity and appearances and I’m not trying to imply that you aren’t authentic, but it’s hard, right, we go through tough times and just to let it all out, be like we’re suffering here. It’s hard, it’s a balance. So how did you deal with that, or how do you feel like one can deal with that? 

Ameet Khabra Guest

35:35

So I’m going to take us back about two and a half years ago. So June 2022 was probably the most significant month in my business and probably a date that I’m never going to forget, which is just unfortunate. Our business manager on Meta got hacked. It spent 50 million or not 50 million, sorry, $50,000. Are you serious Dollars? Yeah, it was bad. 

35:59

I was across, like I want to say, about seven accounts or something like that over the timeframe, and this is when Meta had just announced that they had basically cut down their customer service. So it used to be great and then it was just not. So I basically got to watch these hackers for a whole week make changes in the account, literally in real time. I was literally watching them do this and I couldn’t do anything. And I’m sitting there chatting with them. I’m watching them. They’re doing this. I still have access to that. Just look at the timeframe. When was this person added? They shouldn’t have been. Why are they spending this money and why is it in a different language than what the account was doing beforehand? Like there’s really easy safety checks that Meta could do to prevent this nonsense from happening. They just chose not to. 

36:39

But going back to the question, because I’m going to go off on another tangent if I don’t so then that basically ended up happening, and I think that was the first moment where I actually really realized that I can’t bottle it in anymore. I used to keep it because, like, obviously, social media is the place where you take your highlight reel, right, you go and you sit there and you’re like look at this vacation. I went on, looked at my husband, looked at my boyfriend, looked at this bag that I have all these wonderful things. Let me curate it perfectly. So you think my life is just wonderful. And I fell into the same thing where I was like, well, if nobody else is talking about their problems, they must not be having them. That’s the natural assumption that you make. 

37:12

And then, eventually, when I started talking about June 2022 and everyone started realizing how truly horrible it was for me, that’s when a lot of people were like, oh, I had this really hard time, or I had this really hard time, or I did this and this didn’t work out for me. And I think that’s when I realized that, like, I had surpassed being somebody that people were just randomly following to somebody that they were actually actively following. And that was a really weird one for me, because I never set out like at the start of this, you said that I’m one of the most influential in the like. I never have. That was never my goal. I just never like it’s weird to hear that, like it’s really strange to hear that. 

37:52

But then I think that’s when I started realizing that there was some value in the content that I was actually creating outside of PPC. So I started adding little bits and pieces of like okay, well, this is where I’m sitting at, mental health wise, this is where I’m sitting here. And that also really helped me figure out how to communicate with my team and I think my team is probably where it really started, where I just sat there and I was like I don’t want to do anything today, I want to go back to bed and I want to cry. That’s all I want to do. And everybody be like go ahead, do it. And then I would do it the same next week and I would do it again and again and again. 

38:24

And then I eventually turned into, kept on going and I was like okay, so this progression that they’re watching me go through was really helpful for them because I noticed that they started opening up more to me. So I was like, if I take this online, what happens? So then that was kind of just like the thought process of like okay, maybe I should be talking about how horrible things are for me, not in the sense of wanting sympathy, but really giving everyone a very balanced view of what it really takes to run a business and an agency and what it feels like to be a solo owner versus someone who has a partnership or multiple partners and stuff like that. It’s very isolating and it’s really like I mean, if we talked very like about 2022, like in a very like detailed manner, guaranteed I’d probably still cry about it. Like I can still kind of feel my emotion. It’s just that I’m able to kind of keep this one back this time, but it was just such a horrible time and I think that was the tipping point for me in terms of like okay, my content needs to change. Everybody needs to see how horrible this is. So that way, if they choose to still make that same decision, they’re making one that’s very educated. 

39:29

So now, when people come to me and they’re like, hey, amit, I want to start my own agency what you’re probably expecting me to say is like oh, I love running my agency, all of this stuff. The first thing that comes out of my mouth is like this is the worst thing on the planet sometimes. And they’ll just sit there and they’re like, what did you do? And I’m like no, trust me. Like some days you literally are like, why did I do this? To myself, like it’s just, that’s just what happens, but then you have the same thing in a job. It’s just that all of that waits on you now, right? 

39:55

So yeah, for me it’s very much a concerted effort of being like okay, I need to make sure that as I talk about all of these wonderful things that are happening in my life, I need to make sure that people understand that sometimes it’s not always like this Just because I’m in a phase of my life where it’s just overly abundant right now and it’s just so wonderful. 

40:13

I did go through seven years of complete trash beforehand. There needs to be that side of it and, just like what we were saying earlier today, you can only enjoy the good if you’ve had some bad, and I think that’s just kind of where I really want to echo that to everybody where running a business is just like life. It’s going to ebb and flow. Sometimes you’re super passionate and sometimes you’re not. Sometimes you really love it and sometimes you actually kind of want to get out, and I had a two-year period where I thought about that every single day. Do I want to continue this or not? I don’t know if this is going to sound weird, but I’ve always, like, had something in my life. I’ve always said that I’m built differently, and I don’t mean it in an elitist way. 

Danny Gavin Host

40:54

I just mean, like something about me just doesn’t feel like this, is it, if that makes sense? No, I think it’s a natural spark to be okay, like I’ve got this purpose. I got this mission. I don’t know if I’ve filled it yet and I still need to keep searching for it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think in our life I think we have micro missions, but then we also have bigger missions. Sometimes we don’t know what that was until we’re 120 years old. Right, but that’s how we got it. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

41:16

Hopefully we figure that out a little bit sooner than that. 

Danny Gavin Host

41:19

Exactly, but I’m a big believer. We’re here for a purpose and therefore it’s very true that there’s going to be something inside of you pushing you in a certain direction, and more often than not, you need to listen to yourself and you’ll know whether you’re in the right spot or not. So I think that’s fair. The only thing I was thinking, also while you were talking was yeah, I know exactly what you’re saying. 

41:40

Yes, I also have those really, really hard days for me. I’ve got a beard, so I can look at my videos from 2020 and 2024 and see how gray I’ve gotten. So I’ve got more like a measurement, like oh man, that must have been a bad year, because, oh sheesh, but I’m just joking. But you’re right, there’s definitely those hard days and I think that’s why it’s helpful to have people to talk with right, because if we just were on our own, it’d be very hard and I think we’d give up. But having you know loved ones or its mentors, or you know certain individuals of the company who may not be an owner, but at least it’s someone you feel comfortable sharing with, we need people right. Anyone who’s on their own, it just doesn’t work. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

42:19

It doesn’t, and especially for sounding boards and stuff like that. Like I love using people just to talk to them and when I say using people I don’t mean like using them, but like I’ve loved that conversation because sometimes it might spark something in them or it might spark something in me. For me, my favorite thing in the entire world is going outside where I don’t know anybody and just having random conversations, and my whole thesis behind that is just like if I could put a smile on someone’s face for two seconds, I’ve done my job Like I’ve done my good deed. I can continue walking, because I know that if I’ve made you laugh, I was laughing too. You know what I mean. So then I just take that and I just sit there and I’m like, okay, I might be feeling really, really not great about this at work, but I can make myself feel better somewhere else. 

43:03

And I think it’s just that balance that a lot of people just seem to think that business is all in all the time, and again two years ago taught me that that’s not it. You can’t be working your business 24-7 and still yield the results. I tried. It didn’t work. Like it took me 11 months and two days to get us back to remotely close to where we were when we got hit. That was a year, like literally that was just a year of me just going hyper time because I had no choice it was my reputation or I quit and I was not going to quit. So then for me it was just one of those options. 

43:34

But then I think, showing everybody that like this is what it takes, that you’re constantly pounding the pavement for 11 months and two days. Is this worth it for you? Is this something that you think you’d be able to go out, go to sleep every single night, knowing that yes, I do, I support the decision that I made and I’m very happy with the decision I made? Or would you sit there and be like I don’t think I should have done that, and I think that kind of gave a lot of people some insight into whether or not they wanted to push further than freelancing or if they even wanted to go into freelancing, and I hate that I had to go through that for them to kind of start thinking about it. But I also hate that I went through that to even realize that I needed to talk about my mental health and talk about these moments where I didn’t maybe act exactly the way that I wanted to just to keep up appearances was just really eye-opening for me. 

44:20

So now it’s more or less like I sit there and I go. Is this performative or is this real? And that’s usually like the question that I go back and forth with all the time and that kind of helps me maintain that nice little level, because some of it is performative. I’m not going to lie here, right, like some of it, I just want to make myself feel good, so I’m going to do it. That’s just the long and short of it, you’re human. 

44:38

But most, yeah, exactly, but most of the content that I try to put out, I just am trying to like to get sympathy, and then if it’s the latter, then more often than not I accept content and then I just continue going. 

Danny Gavin Host

44:52

I love it. I think it’s an amazing barometer. So before we wrap up, I want to get into our top three before we have the call. Sounds like you have lots of cool interests, so we’re going to say a category and tell me what you think of or what you enjoy right now specifically. So number one books. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

45:10

Oh my gosh, I just love turning my brain off and just reading and learning something new. I think that’s just really cool. So the way that I do this is audio book with the physical book. Really, I feel like my comprehension is significantly higher. 

Danny Gavin Host

45:22

I love that. I had never even thought about that. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

45:32

I heard it. I was, I think, listening to the Alex Hermosi book I can’t remember which one it was, but one of them sometime in 2023. And he had made that mention where he’s like I do audio book with the real book and I was like I wonder because I know that my mind wanders right Like again, analyst, I’m thinking 2050, possibly a million different things at one moment. So I was like how do I combat that? Like, how, analyst, I’m thinking 2050, possibly a million different things at one moment. So I was like how do I combat that? Like, how do I keep focused? And for me it was like okay, even if my mind starts to wander, at least I’m hearing it, like I’ll still pick it up in some way, and that’s been really, really cool. I’ve really, really loved it. 

46:01

I recently finished my last book. I think it was the Revenge of the Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell, and I enjoyed that read. I totally understand everybody’s criticism towards it. It’s not as in-depth, but I kind of like the eagle view of all of it. I think that’s kind of interesting just to sit there and be like, oh, so we saw that coming and then we didn’t do anything. So that’s been. Yeah, I think that’s really just. The cool part for me is just being able to figure out what works for me, which is basically reading twice at one point, which might be something cool for you. 

Danny Gavin Host

46:31

I know I can’t tell you how excited I am about that idea, because we’ll talk about this another time, but yeah, I need it. That’s great. Yeah, totally fair. All right, football. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

46:41

What I’m excited about, the Detroit Lions. What I’m not excited about is the Dallas Cowboys. But they are saying that Deion Sanders might become our coach. I wouldn’t hate that. I wouldn’t hate that. Did I like McCarthy in that position? No, not at all. I called him to be gone after that Packers game last year. What the F was that? I’m still mad about that game, so I’m going to stop myself. Now I’m really mad about that game. That game was pathetic, that game. So I’m going to stop myself. Now I’m really mad about that game. That game was pathetic. That game was pathetic. But yeah, he should have been gone last year. He should have been gone last year. 

Danny Gavin Host

47:17

Yeah, if Dion comes along, I think it’s going to change everything, so I’m excited for that opportunity as well. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

47:22

I’m hoping that he’ll have the Dan Campbell effect on them. I think I really love how military precision the Lions kind of feel, even when you’re watching them do their lineups like they’re on point, like every single person, same beat, same. I love it, like absolutely I just love it. And I was like if Deion Sanders could bring something like that to the Cowboys, I would be just so happy, I would be so happy. 

Danny Gavin Host

47:49

Last category, music. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

47:50

Oh gosh, I listen to everything. 

Danny Gavin Host

47:53

But like a favorite genre, do you have a favorite? 

Ameet Khabra Guest

47:57

I would say rock is kind of where my heart goes. So think of the Alexis on Fires, Billy Talent Screamo in the back. There needs to be a Screamo singer there. I love that. I think I’m naturally just someone who feels like my emotions are pretty intense, just like that’s just the long and short of it, and like that kind of music, just like it just feels so good in my core where I can just scream into it and just feel like I’m releasing everything, good or bad, and it’s just like absolutely amazing. But Alexis on Fire is like the band that just feels like I’m releasing everything, good or bad, and it’s just absolutely amazing. But Alexis on Fire is the band that has my heart. I don’t think I get starstruck outside of a few PPC people very often, but if Alexis on Fire ended up anywhere remotely close to me I would pass out, no doubt. 

Danny Gavin Host

48:43

Well, Amit, this was an awesome conversation. I seriously feel like you’re a sister from another mother. 

Ameet Khabra Guest

48:49

I love that. 

Danny Gavin Host

48:50

Thank you so much for coming here and it’s so cool how we’ve met recently and yeah, so this is just really really great. So thanks for being a guest on the Digital Marketing Mentor and thank you, listeners, for tuning into the Digital Marketing Mentor. We’ll speak with you next time.